S7E5: Angels Take Manhattan (SPOILERS)

Ronpur wrote:

Rocco wrote:

Ronpur wrote:

Yes, that problem was because of the time distortion caused by the angels. That is why he needed River to light the way for him. With those angels gone, what would be the problem. Unless they were totally wrong and Amy and Rory jumping did not erase them with the paradox. And the angels survived. And if the angels did survive, that would explain where the angel came from in the graveyard. So...the Doctor has just left a hive of angels in NYC.

But they didn't say it was because of the angels. The angels were there because of the time distortion.

I must have missed that, I thought the angels were causing the distortion.

The distortion came up while they were discussing why Rory couldn't of come via TARDIS.

kcooper76 wrote:

Ronpur wrote:

And the angels survived. And if the angels did survive, that would explain where the angel came from in the graveyard. So...the Doctor has just left a hive of angels in NYC.

He does say that lone Angel is a survivor from it...it's left over and weak, and probably died shortly after they left.

LOL, missed that too. I just need to rewatch it. Beyond that, I found it very enjoyable.

Ronpur wrote:

kcooper76 wrote:

Ronpur wrote:

And the angels survived. And if the angels did survive, that would explain where the angel came from in the graveyard. So...the Doctor has just left a hive of angels in NYC.

He does say that lone Angel is a survivor from it...it's left over and weak, and probably died shortly after they left.

LOL, missed that too. I just need to rewatch it. Beyond that, I found it very enjoyable.

Me too. Definitely my favorite of Series 7 so far. Rated Fantastic. I liked how they did the ending. I'm going to miss Karen, I was one of the few that liked her. Maybe that's just my weakness for redheads.

My one problem was with the doctor healing Rivers wrist. Really? Really though?

Rocco wrote:

Definitely my favorite of Series 7 so far. Rated Fantastic. I liked how they did the ending. I'm going to miss Karen, I was one of the few that liked her. Maybe that's just my weakness for redheads.

Yup. Mmhmm. Yes to all that (although I'll miss both of them)

kcooper76 wrote:

Rocco wrote:

Definitely my favorite of Series 7 so far. Rated Fantastic. I liked how they did the ending. I'm going to miss Karen, I was one of the few that liked her. Maybe that's just my weakness for redheads.

Yup. Mmhmm. Yes to all that (although I'll miss both of them)

Me also again. Rory grew on me, I was sad when he was on the ledge. Sadly I knew they would be jumping together from the trailer but I was still sad.

But seriously how do you not miss this woman

Fantastic. Sure, there are problems. But egads, what a departure. Almost made me as sad as Donna's departure. And as a Rory fan... there may have been some mist on these eyes.

I enjoyed the Husband/Wife jokes with both couples. I also felt like River felt a lot more natural in the story. (Though we never do find out why she's there to begin with, just that she got there.)

I don't think this will be the last appearance of River. There's the line in Library/Forest where she says the Doctor came to her "in a new suit and haircut" which I always read as shorthand for "a new Regeneration." I imagine one or two more River episodes/appearances before Smith leaves and that will be it. (We do need to figure out why she has all of Capt. Jack's gear!)

Anyway, I had high expectations for this episode and was glued to the screen. Never a huge fan of the Angels, and I saw where the plot was going with their time-powers, but it was the natural solution.

kcooper76 wrote:

Rocco wrote:

Definitely my favorite of Series 7 so far. Rated Fantastic. I liked how they did the ending. I'm going to miss Karen, I was one of the few that liked her. Maybe that's just my weakness for redheads.

Yup. Mmhmm. Yes to all that (although I'll miss both of them)

Same. Best of the 5, one of the very best of Matt's era. And I liked Amy & Rory both. I'm still not at all sure how my little niece will react ...

kcooper76 wrote:

Gallifreys Loss wrote:

I really liked the episode, but it was kind of just a rewrite of Blink. I thought the 9/11 tie in was a nice touch.

It was a "rewrite of Blink" in the same way Asylum of the Daleks was a rewrite of Dalek.

I think there were far more similarities and borrowed bits than that. It's just an opinion though.

TinDogRory wrote:

(We do need to figure out why she has all of Capt. Jack's gear!)

I would just love to have both of them together at some point (hopefully next year), as the two of them are just my favorite characters to appear on the series.

Gallifreys Loss wrote:

I think there were far more similarities and borrowed bits than that. It's just an opinion though.

I'd like to know what was so similar.

Gallifreys Loss wrote:

I think there were far more similarities and borrowed bits than that. It's just an opinion though.

I think they took the things we saw in Blink and used more of the characteristics from the Angels in that episode, rather then the 2 parter in season 5.


A rewrite though? ehhh to far of a stretch.

So, this is before the Library for River, since she's now a professor. Is this possibly her last appearance as well?

... Nah, Moff will bring her back for some crazy story...

River will be around a lot more, that's for sure. And, when she's ready to go, we'll get that episode where he shows up and says Good-bye that River told the Tenth Doctor about.

Anyway, I am wondering about the whole never seeing Amy and Rory again thing. So, the Paradox prevents the TARDIS from every returning to New York, while the Time Manipulator wrist thing allows River to go in like a motorbike between traffic. So, River will get to send Amy the manuscript, while the Doctor never, ever, never, forever ever, not once again will get to see Amy or Rory.

Seems fishy.

I think Amy and Rory finally decided that they wanted to live out their lives together, in a linear non-timey wimey fashion, and rather than just be honest, they passive aggressively let this Paradox thing be their excuse not to see him again.

I mean, if it's a fact that the TARDIS can't return to Manhattan, because of the Paradox, couldn't they simply take the train to Boston or Philly and meet the Doctor?

Or, was it because, seeing their gravestones, they figured that to leave would cause another paradox, and the Doctor said another paradox would wipe out New York?

But, even if they traveled with him again, and made sure to be buried one day in New York...

I'm just not sure...

Since we've already seen River's death it means her story could carry on for a lot longer. Yeah, she's a professor now, doesn't necessarily mean she's gonna die now though. I sure hope she doesn't, put it that way.

TinDogRory wrote:

(We do need to figure out why she has all of Capt. Jack's gear!)

She got her Vortex Manipulator from Dorium in 'The Pandorica Opens' if that's what you mean.

Out of the 5 episodes, I would happily watch this episode & "Asylum of the Daleks" again. The other three will live in the fob watch that I keep all the crappy episodes in.


It's choc full of Matt Smith episodes!!

I loved it. . .though why couldn't the doctor just back to 1939? and get them. . .or 1940. . .or 1950? Also. . .weren't their future selves there for the silurian episode in series 5?

I also liked how Amy lived five more years than rory.

I thought it was a good creepy episode. Angels were very scary, and I thought the cherubs were very well done and creepy. The love between Amy and Rory was well balanced I thought - not overdone and melodramatic, not snarky Amy as we have seen before.

The "I'm sorry. I'm so sorry" was very Tennant-ish. He's not going back to see them.

I LOVE that they finally explained the scene in the 11th Hour where young Amelia is sitting there waiting and you hear the Tardis but never see anything. I have always wondered what happened there and admittedly, after two seasons I gave up thinking they were ever going to wrap that up. As soon as she started talking about it in the afterword I was ecstatic. That was the most touching part of the episode for me. The Girl Who Waited created the Girl Who Waited.

Here's a screenshot of what the doctor was preening himself in the Tardis:

I thought BLINK established that the Doctor can't just go back and rescue the people who get Angel'd, for paradox reasons. (Except for the time he saved himself and Martha, because they get the TARDIS) They instantly become part of events, a fixed point in time. And while I'm sure you could argue that The Doctor and River together could just storm through time and save Rory and Amy, that's just not narratively interesting.

Why he can't go back and get them has less to do with the New York Paradox then it does with the nature of the Angels themselves. I really enjoyed 11 slipping into his 10 personality with the "I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry." There's also a few times throughout the episode where the Doctor has that "look" on his face when he sees River, the "You're closer than ever to when I first met you."

i thought this episode was fantastic on so many levels!!! i was so happy that they went back to the moment with amellia with the tardis sound and the smile that was in the first episode!! soo cool cant wait for more!!

Even if the TARDIS can no longer land in NY in 1938, couldn't the Doctor land in Pennsylvania, New Jersey; etc., hop on a bus and go visit the Ponds? And what's to stop him from landing there in 1950 or 1960 and visit them when they're older?

Honestly the whole he can't visit them ever again thing makes no sense.

Not that I'm complaining. I'm just glad they're gone.

Jackknight wrote:

Even if the TARDIS can no longer land in NY in 1938, couldn't the Doctor land in Pennsylvania, New Jersey; etc., hop on a bus and go visit the Ponds? And what's to stop him from landing there in 1950 or 1960 and visit them when they're older?

Honestly the whole he can't visit them ever again thing makes no sense.

Not that I'm complaining. I'm just glad they're gone.

Yes, it could. All Amy and Rory have to do is leave New York. They have to be buried there to not create another more explosive Paradox, as their gravestones are a fixed point, but they could see the Doctor if they wanted. Obviously, River will interact with them, getting the book to Amy to publish. Sounds like they don't want to see the Doctor.

(See my above post).

Jackknight wrote:

Even if the TARDIS can no longer land in NY in 1938, couldn't the Doctor land in Pennsylvania, New Jersey; etc., hop on a bus and go visit the Ponds? And what's to stop him from landing there in 1950 or 1960 and visit them when they're older?

Honestly the whole he can't visit them ever again thing makes no sense.

Not that I'm complaining. I'm just glad they're gone.

The real reason is the actors left the series.. anything on camera to explain why is just fluff and technobabble

Jackknight wrote:

Even if the TARDIS can no longer land in NY in 1938, couldn't the Doctor land in Pennsylvania, New Jersey; etc., hop on a bus and go visit the Ponds?

No, he can't. According to Amy's afterward she never sees him again, so that can't change.

All these questions have been answered already in this thread.... I would suggest watching the episode again, because all of it makes sense.

Made me kinda sad.

Rocco wrote:

Made me kinda sad.

I watched that yesterday and it made me more sad than the episode did.