S6E8: Let's Kill Hitler

Rust wrote:

"It's Magic! We don't have to explain it!' ~ Joe Quesada, explaining how 20+ years of Spider-Man being married to Mary Jane can be wiped out in a mini-series.

Not going to even go there. I'm just glad I stopped collecting it before that happened.

I think the Astronaut rising is a ship used by the Time munchkins....

They have all the data of every crime in time apparently. It makes sense the Doctor admitted to copying their data base....I am sure we will see the tiny ones again by seasons end

I remember a companion named turlough who was in league with the Black guardian to eliminate the doctor. What happened ????Turlough became a companion.

Now i Thought at the Time Turlough was Evil but the Dr knew better

I think the Doctor will team up with the Time Munchkins in an effort to reform Mels/Melody Pond/River Song. According to the data in the episode they have listed Melody pond not River Song as the Doctors killer. I think the Doctor will show the tiny time people that reforming a person is better then torturing them.

rmlextreme wrote:

I think the Astronaut rising is a ship used by the Time munchkins....

That is an interesting idea,and I love the name Time Munchkins!!

One thing that irked me about the episode was Mels. She was programmed/brainwashed/call it what you will, to kill The Doctor. She turns up @ the cornfield in a stolen car & possibly tries to run him over? Possibly. She then spends time flirting with him - refering to him as hot. She then pulls a gun on him & has more than enough time to shoot him. Does she seize this opportunity? NO - she waffles on a bit more & decides that she wants to take a wee trip back in time to kill Hitler. What an absolutely useless assassin.

Grumble over!

Yeah, the show would have been better if she had no moral qualms and just killed the Doctor outright, thus ending the show forever.

Calixar wrote:

Yeah, the show would have been better if she had no moral qualms and just killed the Doctor outright, thus ending the show forever.

Now now...that's not what I meant. Just pointing out that she was a useless assassin & yet another Moffat mis-hap.

workstinx wrote:

Calixar wrote:

Yeah, the show would have been better if she had no moral qualms and just killed the Doctor outright, thus ending the show forever.

Now now...that's not what I meant. Just pointing out that she was a useless assassin & yet another Moffat mis-hap.

And countless of times in classic Who we had villains and baddies, especially the biggies like the Master, Daleks, Cybermen, etc, that have the Doc right in front of them and never kill him.

Cruel Angel wrote:

workstinx wrote:

Calixar wrote:

Yeah, the show would have been better if she had no moral qualms and just killed the Doctor outright, thus ending the show forever.

Now now...that's not what I meant. Just pointing out that she was a useless assassin & yet another Moffat mis-hap.

And countless of times in classic Who we had villains and baddies, especially the biggies like the Master, Daleks, Cybermen, etc, that have the Doc right in front of them and never kill him.

I give up!

It is fact. There is nothing wrong with this episode, or the NuWho series on a whole, that there isn't with the classic series.

Scary wrote:

It is fact. There is nothing wrong with this episode, or the NuWho series on a whole, that there isn't with the classic series.

Precisely what I've been saying for some time (and said at-length in another post this very morning).

Heck, the whole "Why didn't they just kill him straight away?" thing is an issue with ALL heroic fiction, most of which is NOT, you will observe, written by the Moff. You want entertainment where the villains aren't painfully stupid, and just wipe the heroes out when the opportunity presents itself? Then stay away from heroic fiction altogether.

I agree, Workstinx! River was ready to shoot the Doctor right after the regeneration. Mels decided to go joy riding in the TARDIS and didn't appear to actually try to kill the Doctor. It's a bit unclear how she shot the console, but she certainly wasn't gunning for him from start until end. It may have kept the drama going to get to River, but still a bit of a hole in the logic.

Moffat isn't the worst human ever, but Mels to River certainly wasn't smooth. The villian is permitted to explain his plan or decide to leave the doomed hero alone giving a chance for escape. That plays on the whole ego/superiority thing the villain has going. The villain also needs to capture the McGuffin, needs to keep the hero alive to unlock the door, needs to use them for bait, etc. The plot is therefore an excuse not to kill the hero immediately. But Mels just seemed more a wild, reckless girl and not really out to kill the Doctor.

But I'm sure I'll get over this. It just would have been nice to have some reason for Mels not to go off immediately lethal.

Scary wrote:

It is fact. There is nothing wrong with this episode, or the NuWho series on a whole, that there isn't with the classic series.

Scary 3:16... preach on!

mysterylad wrote:

Scary wrote:

It is fact. There is nothing wrong with this episode, or the NuWho series on a whole, that there isn't with the classic series.

Precisely what I've been saying for some time (and said at-length in another post this very morning).

Just read that post and there is a valid point not to take any of this too seriously. But at it's best the drama should keep the number of illogical twists and blunders to a minimum. It can still be fun even with these present, often a bit funnier. But a really good dramatic tale should have this all thought through and minimize the plot holes. I can enjoy the imperfect, but Let's Kill Hitler isn't a 5/5 for me.

squishy wrote:

Just read that post and there is a valid point not to take any of this too seriously. But at it's best the drama should keep the number of illogical twists and blunders to a minimum. It can still be fun even with these present, often a bit funnier. But a really good dramatic tale should have this all thought through and minimize the plot holes. I can enjoy the imperfect, but Let's Kill Hitler isn't a 5/5 for me.

And that's fair. Although, I gotta say, looking for a "really good dramatic tale" in an episode of Doctor Who (the modern incarnation of which is really embracing its roots as a kids' show), let alone one called "Let's Kill Hitler," is probably ill-advised and doomed to fail.

You know there is one question, the one tidbit that all of you are totally glossing over and that is...DID HITLER EVER GET RELEASED FROM THE CLOSET?!? He could still be in there and the whole course of history will have changed because of it...lol. Probably not a bad thing if he was left in there to rot.

squishy wrote:

I agree, Workstinx! River was ready to shoot the Doctor right after the regeneration. Mels decided to go joy riding in the TARDIS and didn't appear to actually try to kill the Doctor. It's a bit unclear how she shot the console, but she certainly wasn't gunning for him from start until end. It may have kept the drama going to get to River, but still a bit of a hole in the logic.

If she had shot the Doctor whilst they were crashing then there would have been no one there that knew how to land the TARDIS, and with the Doctor dead and the TARDIS crashing, they would have all perished.

It's a bit of a silly argument to say "she should have just killed him." How boring would it be then? Why didn't the Daleks just kill Hartnell all those years ago?

Yeah, exactly.

I actually enjoyed this one.

Amy's BFOONW (Best Friend Out Of Nowhere) was a bit lame at first, and when she showed up with the sports car and the pistol I turned to my wife and said 'Aw crap, she's another River.' Haha.

But the miniaturized police in the shapechanging robot was very cool and the exchanges were neat, and I didn't even mind River's one-upping in this outing.

I'm a bit confused about something & the whole time travel thing has always been a bit of sticky subject for me.

The thing I find confusing about the timetravel thing ties in quite well with Let's kill Hitler.

Mels travels back in time with The Doctor, Rory & Amy. While there she gets shot & regenerates into River. This much I can work with. However, where it all starts to go a bit "squiffy" for me is......how can Mels then be in school with Rory & Amy....get in trouble with her teachers....get arrested....turn up in a stolen car in the middle of a cornfield....etc. Would she not cease to exist after being shot in Germany?

My head hurts!!

This is not a slight on the writer or the NuWho. This is a genuine conundrum I have never been able to get my head round!!

ok, i'm posting in this thread, because i have a take on things that i don't think anyone's mentioned. Does anyone besides me think the title "Let's Kill Hitler" could actually mean "let's Kill the Doctor"?. Mels/River hates the Doctor, blames him for everything from the titanic to WWII, so isn't he her "Hitler"? Or am i reading too much into this?

Penny in the Air Bret

workstinx wrote:

I'm a bit confused about something & the whole time travel thing has always been a bit of sticky subject for me.

The thing I find confusing about the timetravel thing ties in quite well with Let's kill Hitler.

Mels travels back in time with The Doctor, Rory & Amy. While there she gets shot & regenerates into River. This much I can work with. However, where it all starts to go a bit "squiffy" for me is......how can Mels then be in school with Rory & Amy....get in trouble with her teachers....get arrested....turn up in a stolen car in the middle of a cornfield....etc. Would she not cease to exist after being shot in Germany?

My head hurts!!

This is not a slight on the writer or the NuWho. This is a genuine conundrum I have never been able to get my head round!!

Because at the point where she was growing up she had still not seen the Doctor since she was a little girl in the Space suit and at Demon's Run. Just because 1938 is before when she grew up does not mean she would cease to exist, because at this point she had not died and regenerated in Berlin yet. This part of her future was in everyone else's past. This sort of thing happens all the time in DW, it's pretty simple to follow.

Scary wrote:

workstinx wrote:

I'm a bit confused about something & the whole time travel thing has always been a bit of sticky subject for me.

The thing I find confusing about the timetravel thing ties in quite well with Let's kill Hitler.

Mels travels back in time with The Doctor, Rory & Amy. While there she gets shot & regenerates into River. This much I can work with. However, where it all starts to go a bit "squiffy" for me is......how can Mels then be in school with Rory & Amy....get in trouble with her teachers....get arrested....turn up in a stolen car in the middle of a cornfield....etc. Would she not cease to exist after being shot in Germany?

My head hurts!!

This is not a slight on the writer or the NuWho. This is a genuine conundrum I have never been able to get my head round!!

Because at the point where she was growing up she had still not seen the Doctor since she was a little girl in the Space suit and at Demon's Run. Just because 1938 is before when she grew up does not mean she would cease to exist, because at this point she had not died and regenerated in Berlin yet. This part of her future was in everyone else's past. This sort of thing happens all the time in DW, it's pretty simple to follow.

????? Clear as mud!!

She then went back in time after meeting The Doctor for the first time to 1938 & got shot. At this point, would teenage Mels/Melody not cease to exist due to her regenerating into the older Melody/River? How can someting cease to exist in 1938 only to exist in the 1990's/2000's - whenever it was they went to school........my head still hurts....if not a wee bit more now!!

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey, Time isnt linear they keep saying that over and over.

This is Doctor who not a physics Class.....

Ok Milo what is 7500 x 345,455,230? lol

Just Enjoy the show if you think about too hard you will get a headache.

I think they should have gotten an actress in her 20s or 30s to play the newly regenerated River.
But it probably adds to the shows costs. Barring that it was funny how she was concerned about her weight and how her butt looked lol.

Star trek TNG ended in the states largely cause of Costs just got out of hand with it.
Now according to the Entertainment news Star trek may be coming back weekly to CBS. my Guess its largely cause of the success of Dr Who

workstinx wrote:

Scary wrote:

workstinx wrote:

I'm a bit confused about something & the whole time travel thing has always been a bit of sticky subject for me.

The thing I find confusing about the timetravel thing ties in quite well with Let's kill Hitler.

Mels travels back in time with The Doctor, Rory & Amy. While there she gets shot & regenerates into River. This much I can work with. However, where it all starts to go a bit "squiffy" for me is......how can Mels then be in school with Rory & Amy....get in trouble with her teachers....get arrested....turn up in a stolen car in the middle of a cornfield....etc. Would she not cease to exist after being shot in Germany?

My head hurts!!

This is not a slight on the writer or the NuWho. This is a genuine conundrum I have never been able to get my head round!!

Because at the point where she was growing up she had still not seen the Doctor since she was a little girl in the Space suit and at Demon's Run. Just because 1938 is before when she grew up does not mean she would cease to exist, because at this point she had not died and regenerated in Berlin yet. This part of her future was in everyone else's past. This sort of thing happens all the time in DW, it's pretty simple to follow.

????? Clear as mud!!

She then went back in time after meeting The Doctor for the first time to 1938 & got shot. At this point, would teenage Mels/Melody not cease to exist due to her regenerating into the older Melody/River? How can someting cease to exist in 1938 only to exist in the 1990's/2000's - whenever it was they went to school........my head still hurts....if not a wee bit more now!!

No. If someone grew up between 1980 to 1996 and lived on to be grown up in 2011, but was then shot in 1989, the person would cease to exist 1989 onwards, meaning the 1996 version of that person never happened. But because Melody grows up in the future and dies in the past, as a means to her own time line, it would make no difference. It's not the time zone that matters here, but more the fact of which stage in her life she was shot, and she was shot as she was older. She had already grown up by the time she had gone back in time.

Really, this sort of thing happens all the time in Doctor Who. I just feel some people aren't putting much effort into working it all out. The facts are being handed to us on a silver plate, but whether or not you tuck into those juicy fact-pork-chops on that plate is down to whomever is handed said plate. Wake up guys, it's not hard.

Amen Scary

Enough said !