everything that is wrong with "let's kill hitler" bretowen99

if you're reading this: stop. yes, i said stop. think about this. you know who i am. you know i don't like moffat. so if you think i'm just "hating on him for no good reason", stop reading right now. you are not who i am writing for. i am writing for anyone who enjoys GOOD science fiction. you know, continuaty, plotlines that make sense, and time travel that is actually effective. if that's not you, turn around right now.

first this "episode" starts off with amy pond "breaking the 4th wall". how, do you ask? first thing she asks the doctor is "you've had all summer break, have you found melody yet?" oh, very clever moffat, admitting there was a summer break in the show, instead of just continuing where you left off. well? did the doctor find baby melody with him time machine? no. did he find toddler melody (who apparently was wondering the streets of new york, with no adults taking her in), no. what did the doctor find all summer break? a new coat. yes, folks, the doctor who has a time and space machine spent all summer finding a new coat. not a trace of a baby, toddler, or anything else, but thank god he has a new wardrobe. i think i lost all respect for the doctor in that moment (he's like the opposite of sherlock holmes, who doesn't even have a time machine!).

second, we get introduced to a character named "mels". really? what kind of name is that? i know i've heard melody, mel, melanie, but never "mels". i'm sorry just to dog on the name, but it just sounds stupid to me (not to mention that every site that reported the character named "mels", everyone had already guessed it was river song/melody. wow, way to simplify something for the masses moffat, that was hard to figure out). now this character, which WE'VE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF BEFORE (even though moffat has obsessively told us everything about amy ponds' life before now), is a HUGE part of amy and rory's life. which leads me to believe one of two things: 1. moffat is making this up all as he goes along (i'll get to this later). 2. "mels" slipped through the "crack" and was not a part of the "original" universe with amy (ok, maybe both are true). either way, this was the worst part of the episode. mels tells every teacher something about the doctor (which seemed strange at the time that she was obsessed with the doctor, because it should have been amy getting in trouble, since she had to go to 4 psychiatrists). really hated the character of "mels", and couldn't be happier that they killed her off soon enough (problem is, i heard the actress will be in more episodes this year, DRAT!).

third, we have hitler. i am in no means a hitler fan, but this episode was such a joke, it really boggled my mind. moffat said before this episode that he was going to "make hitler a joke". really? all you did was have rory punch him, and lock him in a closet for the rest of the episode. that could have been anyone. rasputing, stalin, even jeffrey dahmer. "we're going to make them look funny, by calling an episode by their name, and locking them in a closet the whole time, get it?" no i don't. wasn't funny, wasn't clever, was just stupid in my opinion.

fourth, we get the big "regeneration" into river song. here is where both me and my girlfriend laughed uncontrollably. why? she went from being a pretty 18 year old girl, into a 50 year old, and was HAPPY ABOUT IT!?! really? you should have heard all the inaproppriate jokes we were making about that (won't say any here). that was a big age skip. wow, that bullet must have done some serious damage, because i've never seen a regeneration go so "wrong" (just my opinion from all the regenerations i've seen, being a lifelong doctor who fan).

5. we get amy admitting that she named "melody" after her best friend mels. so river song named herself, thus creating a paradox (sorry, continuaty is just messed up during moffat's reign. this ISN'T RED DWARF!) so first we have to believe that mels tracked down rory and amy (even though somehow the doctor isn't able to find her at all "all summer break long") and lived near them for all that time. really? i'm sorry, my imagination stretched so hard, it snapped.

6. we get that the doctor knows that melody/river wants to kill him. she's been brainwashed you see. when? heck if i know. when she was a baby(that would be some neat brainwashing "goo goo, ga ga, kill the doctor"). or maybe the parents that raised her the whole time she lived near rory and amy was the eyepatch lady. i don't know, but i think it's crazy to think the doctor knew she was brainwashed, but couldn't find her, or stop it.

7. we get yet another episode where "the doctor dies". i think it's funny that everyone dogged on rtd for his fake regenerations, or turn left, but moffat kills the doctor every other episode and "it's brilliant". no it's not. i knew he wasn't going to die. i knew at the very last minute he would pull out a "deus ex machina" (in a minute i'll get to why i think this is), and the doctor would live, again. i'm tired of moffat thinking this is clever. it's making matt smith look like the weakest doctor ever (that he can get killed every other episode, and has to rely on everyone else to save him. someone on this board was right, moffat hates the doctor).

8. the robot/micro people. really? i'm sorry, wasn't this an eddie murphy film that bombed really badly (meet dave, if i remember correctly). and the metal jellyfish/star wars probe droids. really? this was just camp/70's stuff all around. i'd rather have the cactus people back (or is that cacti?), because this was just goofy beyond all get out.

9. the "silence". this cements in my mind that moffat is making everything up as he goes along. first the "silence" was hinted at by prisoner zero. then, by the fish lady(there was silence and the end of worlds), where the doctor and rory turn around, and there are no people in venice (or sound). then we got a wierd voice in the "big bang" (silence will fall, over and over again). then, series 6 part 1, we got generic x-files looking aliens, who mumble when they talk (couldn't make out a word), calling themselves the "silents", who said that silence will fall (having something to do with amy pond, what a surprise since everything in moffat's universe revolves around amy pond/river song). now, we get that they are a religious sec (like the headless monks, wow, moffat really doesn't like religious groups, seeing as all the ones in his universe are psychos), that will bring silence when a certain question is asked. really? what bullox is this? what is the question moffat? hmmmmm. what is the doctor's real name? who did he kill? who was his wife? did he leave amy on purpose for 6 years? i'm sorry, what a menace to the universe. "everyone watch out, they are going to ask a question and the whole universe will end". i'm scared (mostly of moffat's writing).

10. the ending. river had to use "all her regenerations" to save the doctor. look, moff, we get it. river dies in the library. she didn't regenerate, she didn't live. you didn't have to write off all her regenerations (we don't even know how many she had, since she's only partially timelord, which is still bogus in my mind). this is yet another "let's rewrite what regeneration means episode". first rtd had tennant have his hand cut off (which kind of worked in my opinion). second, though, he had a fake regeneration where he channeled all of the energy into said cut off hand (everyone was up in arms about this). yet in this episode river song is mowed down by how many bullets? and not a scratch. really? i'm sorry, that was just BULLOX! then, we get her channeling all of her regenerations into the doctor to save him. wait? didn't doc 10 say he could only channel his energy into something that his dna? yes he did. wait, didn't moff EXPLICITLY say that melody was the child of amy/rory/the tardis (still stupid), YES. so how can she save the doctor with her energy? sorry, that jumped the shark, nuked the fridge, jumped on the couch, as far as regenerations go. i'm tired of people re-writing what regenerations can do. next thing you know, when amy pond dies, the doctor can use one of his regenerations to have her regenerate. crazy you say. i say i wouldn't put that past moffat.

11.at the end of an episode where river was crazy/repentant/lovestruck with the doctor, we get the doctor, amy and rory just leaving her. really? wait. i said REALLY?!? so the doctor couldn't find her "all summer break" (i'm still laughing about this), but once he does find her, he leaves. what kind of doctor is this? better yet, what is wrong with amy and rory. the doctor tells them to leave their child behind, and they are just "ok" (as bad as when amy went missing in "cold blood", and rory didn't punch out the doctor, because he told him to "trust him"). then we get the doctor leaving river the tardis book, which again creates a paradox, because he knows she has it. i'm tired of all this WIBBLEY WOBBLEY TIMEY WIMEY stuff. stuff in time happens for a reason, we can't have things just creating themselves.

if you can't tell, after this episode, i couldn't be more sick of a time travelling show. not only did it rewrite hitler, it rewrote amy and rory's life, river song created herself, and the doctor apparently can't do anything all summer long, except find a new coat (which looks suspiciously like tennants coat, just painted an ugly color). i'm sorry. i've watched endless scifi shows other than doctor who, and apart from red dwarf, this is just taking the cake on the liberties you can take with a time travel show.

bret_owen99 wrote:

if you're reading this: stop. yes, i said stop.

Okay.

Okay, so tell us how you really feel.

I'm getting the feeling that, quite possibly, you didn't like the episode...?

CGren123 wrote:

I'm getting the feeling that, quite possibly, you didn't like the episode...?

Silly! He loved it!

I feel like that when people make posts like this, then continue to watch the show they should no longer have an opinion. You know how its going to be. Moffat is going to keep writing how Moffat likes. If you don't like it, stop watching the show. Wait until Moffat leaves or go write your own Doctor who episodes. goodluck.

you know, rocco, i'm not trying to start a war with you, but i feel you need a response. if i voted a politician in, but he wasn't doing a very good job, does that mean i can't complain about the job he's doing (both because he has years left in office, and because i voted for him)???

for years, people wrote the same things about rtd, david tennant, etc. they were thrilled when they both left, and did everything to welcome matt smith and moffat (much like some people treat politicians).

don't get me wrong, i like matt smith as the doctor, and i love the show, i just don't like the shows/characters/arcs that moffat write (just like some people did not like the episodes/characters/arcs that rtd wrote).

i will continue to watch the show, in the hopes of seeing some brilliant "non moffat/non arc" episodes. off the top of my head, i can say my favorite one lately is the doctor's wife. that wasn't moffat, and it was pretty good. as far as series 5 goes, the only episodes that i liked were "non moffat".

as far as not having an opinion, that is what a message board is for, for both the positive and negative. if we were to take away people's rights to have one, wouldn't we be just like hitler??? as far as writing my own stories, actually i have a few in my mind, but not the current series. mine revolve around older doctors (the ones that were my favorite).

as far as moffat, i used to love his writing (when he did individual episodes per series). i'm not the only one in the world who thinks he is changing the face of doctor who forever (and not in a good way). i keep giving him chances to redeem himself, and write the way he used to, but it doesn't happen. what i keep getting is a half baked (pardon the pun), cake, that isn't very good to eat. and this is from a guy who used to bake wedding size cakes. i just think the show is too big for him, his arcs are too big, and his character are WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too big (amy, river).

in closing, say whatever you like, and leave others to say their mind as well.

Okay so your going to watch Moffat EVEN THOUGH you know your going to hate it. It won't change. So don't complain everytime Moffat has an episode. We get it you don't like it. Then don't watch the Moffat written episodes.

Hey, come on guys. No need to flame! Use a more civilised weapon; a lightsaber! Wait, scrap that. Wait, wrong franchise anyway.

The point is that we all have our opinions, and maybe Rocco holds a valid point that it is a bit daft watching it if you know you don't like it, Bret.

But then again! Bret, good ol' Bret just wouldn't BE Bret if he was hating on the new series. It's why he's here, why we love him.

So whereas I'm loving series 6 and loved LKH, I look forward to reading Bret's [negative] opinions as much as I look forward to reading the opinions of people like me who loved it! Because although I feel sorry for the nay-sayers, because they're missing out on the fun, the world is so different and quirky... You can only enjoy it.

Now everyone be calm, be peaceful, love DW for all its glory and live long and prosper! Wait, wrong franchise again...

Rocco, if you don't like bret's posts, then don't read them. Just stick him on your ignore list. If he were coming in the main episode threads where everyone's enjoying the episode and writing post after post it'd be a different story, but he's making his own thread and making it very obvious that it's not going to be all happiness and sunshine. Don't like it? Don't read it.

And bret, I mostly agree with you, but at this point, it's what I've come to expect. I got caught up in the hype for the episode and was once again severely let down. It's upsetting, because I really, really wanted to like it. I miss watching a new episode then watching it again right away, and again Sunday morning and coming here and excitedly discussing it. But I can't find anything that I enjoy in these episodes.

I'm glad others can enjoy it. I still read the episode discussion threads and smile at everyone's excitement. Sometimes it feels like watching a party from outside in the rain, but I'm happy everyone's having fun inside.

But I'll keep watching. Why? Because it's Doctor Who. I've watched it, good or bad, for the last 30 years of my life. I've sat through years of episodes I didn't enjoy before and I'll do it again. If I don't like the episode, I'll just shrug my shoulders and wait for next week or next season and hope I like it. Eventually one will come along that I'll like and it'll make it all worth it (like The Doctor's Wife did).

rdks wrote:

Because it's Doctor Who.

Good policy, this was the point I was trying to make in the 'Do you hate story arcs?' thread.

I didnt think it was the most brilliant piece of writing myself. I got a kick out of seeing young amelia reappear. But then again, I ADORE her character. Why the Doctor did not take her with him to begin with I will never understand, it was such a missed opportunity. I was really annoyed with the 'arc intrusion' in The Curse of the Black Spot. Here I am watching the adventure and getting really into it when BAM!!! some broad with an eyepatch suddenly breaks the "2nd wall?" and upsets the narrative flow like an earthquake in the middle of a baseball game.



I watch Doctor Who to 'escape' the life I lead in the world that I occupy, and sometimes when I escape I really dont want to have to 'think' about some trivial clue(s) that may be appearing or have appeared in other episodes to understand what is going on.



And another thing, modern story arcs are different from the old versions. Back in the old days, the cliffhangers were used to keep the viewers watching out of a sense of concern for the well being of the main characters. We really dont have cliffhangers in the same sense as the 20th century narrative. They are very obtrusive in the new style. With the exception of BoomTown where the Doctor points it out, you didn't have to pay attention to any arc material to enjoy the season one bit.



Rant over.

bret_owen99 wrote:

i am writing for anyone who enjoys GOOD science fiction. you know, continuaty, plotlines that make sense, and time travel that is actually effective.

Just a question: What makes Time Travel effective? If anything, that's kind of been the premise of Time Travel in Science Fiction...everything goes wrong with Time Travel. Let's face it, for most of the show's history, Time Travel has just been a method of getting them into strange and unfamiliar surroundings and therefore having an adventure. The introduction of actual temporal mechanics does complicate the narrative, but then again the TARDIS' big thing is supposed to be time travel.

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first this "episode" starts off with amy pond "breaking the 4th wall". how, do you ask? first thing she asks the doctor is "you've had all summer break, have you found melody yet?" oh, very clever moffat, admitting there was a summer break in the show, instead of just continuing where you left off. well? did the doctor find baby melody with him time machine? no. did he find toddler melody (who apparently was wondering the streets of new york, with no adults taking her in), no. what did the doctor find all summer break? a new coat. yes, folks, the doctor who has a time and space machine spent all summer finding a new coat. not a trace of a baby, toddler, or anything else, but thank god he has a new wardrobe. i think i lost all respect for the doctor in that moment (he's like the opposite of sherlock holmes, who doesn't even have a time machine!).

I...what?

So the Doctor shows up with a slight alteration in wardrobe (Which is far from unheard of in the franchise history), he's been given three months to search the whole of space and time for a single infant girl and doesn't find her and you find fault with the Doctor?

Like he told Amy, she has to give him time! The man's barely begun to look!

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second, we get introduced to a character named "mels". really? what kind of name is that? i know i've heard melody, mel, melanie, but never "mels". i'm sorry just to dog on the name, but it just sounds stupid to me (not to mention that every site that reported the character named "mels", everyone had already guessed it was river song/melody. wow, way to simplify something for the masses moffat, that was hard to figure out). now this character, which WE'VE NEVER SEEN OR HEARD OF BEFORE (even though moffat has obsessively told us everything about amy ponds' life before now), is a HUGE part of amy and rory's life. which leads me to believe one of two things: 1. moffat is making this up all as he goes along (i'll get to this later). 2. "mels" slipped through the "crack" and was not a part of the "original" universe with amy (ok, maybe both are true). either way, this was the worst part of the episode. mels tells every teacher something about the doctor (which seemed strange at the time that she was obsessed with the doctor, because it should have been amy getting in trouble, since she had to go to 4 psychiatrists). really hated the character of "mels", and couldn't be happier that they killed her off soon enough (problem is, i heard the actress will be in more episodes this year, DRAT!).

Mels did feel forced into the narrative. You won't see me arguing about that. That being said, we've seen zero of Amy's childhood save for the brief blurbs when she meets the Doctor. There was room for Mels in the backstory.

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third, we have hitler. i am in no means a hitler fan, but this episode was such a joke, it really boggled my mind. moffat said before this episode that he was going to "make hitler a joke". really? all you did was have rory punch him, and lock him in a closet for the rest of the episode. that could have been anyone. rasputing, stalin, even jeffrey dahmer. "we're going to make them look funny, by calling an episode by their name, and locking them in a closet the whole time, get it?" no i don't. wasn't funny, wasn't clever, was just stupid in my opinion.

It was a tongue in cheek appearance. Humor has been a part of this franchise since its inception. Yeah it was a silly little appearance, which I frankly think is fine in regards to an absolute monster like Hitler. If anyone deserves to be punched in the face and shoved in a closet, it's him.

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fourth, we get the big "regeneration" into river song. here is where both me and my girlfriend laughed uncontrollably. why? she went from being a pretty 18 year old girl, into a 50 year old, and was HAPPY ABOUT IT!?! really? you should have heard all the inaproppriate jokes we were making about that (won't say any here). that was a big age skip. wow, that bullet must have done some serious damage, because i've never seen a regeneration go so "wrong" (just my opinion from all the regenerations i've seen, being a lifelong doctor who fan).

I...what?

Regeneration is, and a quote....

"It's a bit dodgy, this process. You never know what you're going to end up with."

So yeah, its understandable she'd be content with what she ended up with. Keep in mind we were supposed to get an older Doctor under Moffat. And if I might add, making inappropriate jokes at the expense of an actress playing the part written for her is rather harsh.

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5. we get amy admitting that she named "melody" after her best friend mels.

Again, Mels does feel a bit forced on the narrative, but it's Time Travel. Naming Melody after a childhood best friend is hardly Back to the Future levels of Temporal Craziness.

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6. we get that the doctor knows that melody/river wants to kill him. she's been brainwashed you see. when?

...Eye Patch Lady wasn't taking her out for a sunday drive. I think it's a good assumption.

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7. we get yet another episode where "the doctor dies".

Again, not exactly new ground tread. He supposedly "died" in "Warriors of the Deep" too.

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8. the robot/micro people. really? i'm sorry, wasn't this an eddie murphy film that bombed really badly (meet dave, if i remember correctly). and the metal jellyfish/star wars probe droids. really? this was just camp/70's stuff all around. i'd rather have the cactus people back (or is that cacti?), because this was just goofy beyond all get out.

Actually, I enjoyed it because of the campy 70s feel of it. Doctor Who has never been 100% serious, and I'm glad to see some more light hearted "monsters of the week". Besides, I find it more interesting that there's more indications that Time Travel technology has "opened up" with the loss of the Time Lords, and people are using the technology to further their own ends.

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9. the "silence". this cements in my mind that moffat is making everything up as he goes along. first the "silence" was hinted at by prisoner zero. then, by the fish lady(there was silence and the end of worlds), where the doctor and rory turn around, and there are no people in venice (or sound). then we got a wierd voice in the "big bang" (silence will fall, over and over again). then, series 6 part 1, we got generic x-files looking aliens, who mumble when they talk (couldn't make out a word), calling themselves the "silents", who said that silence will fall (having something to do with amy pond, what a surprise since everything in moffat's universe revolves around amy pond/river song). now, we get that they are a religious sec (like the headless monks, wow, moffat really doesn't like religious groups, seeing as all the ones in his universe are psychos), that will bring silence when a certain question is asked. really? what bullox is this?

Actually, "The Silence" being a organized movement makes a lot more sense then a parasitic alien. For starters, it makes "Silence Will Fall" actually make sense.

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10. the ending. river had to use "all her regenerations" to save the doctor. look, moff, we get it. river dies in the library. she didn't regenerate, she didn't live. you didn't have to write off all her regenerations (we don't even know how many she had, since she's only partially timelord, which is still bogus in my mind). this is yet another "let's rewrite what regeneration means episode". first rtd had tennant have his hand cut off (which kind of worked in my opinion). second, though, he had a fake regeneration where he channeled all of the energy into said cut off hand (everyone was up in arms about this). yet in this episode river song is mowed down by how many bullets? and not a scratch. really? i'm sorry, that was just BULLOX!

It is not bullocks. If you find David Tennant's hand regrowing in The Christmas Invasion nearly a day after regenerating acceptable, then River being filled full of lead within minutes of regeneration is completely within the realm of the possible. Using all her regenerations is a bit hokey, but hey...how else you gonna jump start a dead Time Lord?

Coincidentally, if she gave the Doctor her remaining regenerations, then the Doctor gained as many as ten more (9 if you discount the one to bring him back).

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11.at the end of an episode where river was crazy/repentant/lovestruck with the doctor, we get the doctor, amy and rory just leaving her. really? wait. i said REALLY?!? so the doctor couldn't find her "all summer break" (i'm still laughing about this), but once he does find her, he leaves. what kind of doctor is this? better yet, what is wrong with amy and rory. the doctor tells them to leave their child behind, and they are just "ok" (as bad as when amy went missing in "cold blood", and rory didn't punch out the doctor, because he told him to "trust him"). then we get the doctor leaving river the tardis book, which again creates a paradox, because he knows she has it.

Of course he knows she has it - he's the one who gave it to her! It's a self-fulfilling paradox!

As for leaving River, she's still under the influence of her training. River's a danger to them right now. As for Amy and Rory being "okay" with it, they aren't okay with it, but let's be honest - knowing that their daughter is River Song and seeing her regenerate as such, it pretty much slams the door on Baby Melody ever being able to come home and live a normal life with her parents.

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doctor apparently can't do anything all summer long, except find a new coat (which looks suspiciously like tennants coat, just painted an ugly color).

Actually, it looks like one of Pertwee's overcoats.

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i'm sorry. i've watched endless scifi shows other than doctor who, and apart from red dwarf, this is just taking the cake on the liberties you can take with a time travel show.

Liberties?
Time Travel?

How about Biff bringing back a book of sports score and turning the town into a Post Apocalyptic Mob Run Cesspool?

Or how about the Terminator series, where serial numbers, dates, and events keep being reconned in and out of existence at the whim of the writing?

Or Quantum Leap...a show that showcased that the people Sam replaced were aware and cared for while Sam was occupying their space, or how they gain the memories of what Sam did when he leaps out?

Time Travel shows always twist things into a pretzel. Thus far, Doctor Who has done it better then most.

The Doctor was doing Comic Con and the Talk show circuit lol
Matt Doctor, Doctor Matt its so confusing.

I think they lose continuity from episode 7 to episode 8 but i think it more toward a wider audience then use Doctor Who Addicts.

If you keep it more towards us you would get a laundry list of complaints
meeting the Doctor by making crop symbols was out of left field
The Mel with an S on the End i thought my hearing was going

The only thing i did like was they addressed a Time lord can regenerate multi race which I did not know they could do, In the doctors Wife the doctor said the Corsair regenerated into a female at some point so. IF your confused join the party!

Brett, can I just say one thing?

It would help your opinion a lot if you use proper capitalization. Not only does it look proper, it makes your message easier to read. And it sounds weird for someone who is only capitalizing words he wants to emphasize to criticize someone's writing. That little bit of effort can really help you get your point across.

Please don't take it as an insult or anything, because I don't mean to, but seriously, halfway through your initial post, I just quit trying to read it. I have low patience enough for trying to read long sections of text from a computer screen. (I know I'm not alone in this.) When it's improperly capitalized, I have even less.

Am I the only one who really cannot take this thread seriously, and am I the only one who isn't really reading the long, rant-esque afore posted comments?

*Play soft elevator music*

Thanks Rust for bringing up most of the points that came to my mind after reading the thread.

Wow, didn't know this one would cause so much "disturbance in the force" (that one goes out to you young master Scary). Where to begin?

First, i want to give notice to JaredofMO. I don't take it as an insult. I'm sorry i don't write professionally (as i know you do), so i really don't put much professionalism into a forum. Sorry if it's hard to keep up with my ranting (On a side note, several years ago, i had a stroke, and i struggle just to spell words correctly now. I spend more time on that, then using capitalization. I'll try harder in the future.)

Second, this goes out to anyone who thinks i just watch moffat to "bash" his writing. How do i know i won't like it, if i don't watch it? As i've said before, I used to enjoy moffat's writing, and i'm hoping to see gold (like the girl in the fireplace, the doctor dances, and even blink). That's why i still watch his episodes. Waiting to enjoy one, to no avail.


Third. Rust, i knew that of anyone on this board you would take issue with a lot of what i said. We are like opposite twins of each other (or alternate universe twins). How can Amy name Melody after Mels, if Mels didn't exist in the first place? I'm sorry, it just seems all forced.

As far as Back to the Future goes, if I could do what Biff did, I would (some would say Barack Obama already did). As far as the Terminator series goes, don't go past Part 2 (everything else is garbage). And as it was explained in the series finale of Quantum Leap, that was orchestrated by God (so perhaps he erased people's memmories after they went back to their life?).

And yes, Master Scary, this was supposed to be a serious thread. I'm sorry if some people are not taking it as much.

bret_owen99 wrote:

Third. Rust, i knew that of anyone on this board you would take issue with a lot of what i said. We are like opposite twins of each other (or alternate universe twins).

I wouldn't say I take issue with your remarks, I'm merely trying to understand where you're coming from. Also I think some of your complaints come from your dislike of Moffat and thus the narrative is colored by that dislike, rather then actual issues.

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How can Amy name Melody after Mels, if Mels didn't exist in the first place? I'm sorry, it just seems all forced.

Because Mels existed in the first place. Time Travel, by its very nature, is non-linear. We only view it as linear because the people we follow are going in a straight line through the time stream.

Melody was born in the future, and the Silence brought her back to the 60s where she regenerated a few times, winding up as a toddler and growing up alongside Amy and Rory.

As for why she was named Melody, Amy was in captivity with neither her Husband or Best Friend. It makes sense she'd yearn for a childhood companion.

Is Mels forced on the narrative? Yes. We agree on that. What we seem to disagree on is whether or not this is acceptable. Mels is forced, but in the full view of what we know, she can fit.

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As far as Back to the Future goes, if I could do what Biff did, I would (some would say Barack Obama already did).

Most people would. However, I doubt most people would then use the money to turn their town into a nightmare of crime and violence.

I don't understand the President comparison, but that's okay. This is neither the time nor the place to get into a political discussion.

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As far as the Terminator series goes, don't go past Part 2 (everything else is garbage).

Even Part 2 is garbage. If Skynet had something like the T-1000, why wouldn't it send that after Sarah Conner? Why not ship both the T-800 and T-1000 after Sarah? Why would the Resistance trust the life of its leader to a reprogrammed Terminator when they could send back a crack squad of troops like they did with Kyle Reese? Why not send the Terminator back to protect Sarah Conner and give Kyle some backup?

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And as it was explained in the series finale of Quantum Leap, that was orchestrated by God (so perhaps he erased people's memmories after they went back to their life?).

So "God Did It" is more acceptable then "Wibbly Wobbly, Timey Wimey"? I'm a Believer and even I don't buy it. Especially since the God angle doesn't work given we see the people Sam replaces in the 21st Century - never mind the episodes where Sam gets back to his own time. The presence of other Leapers just compounds this problem, but that's because there was no long term plan for the series outside its set up.

Ok, so, just to clarify, i was making a joke at the people who think obama has run this country into the ground (i don't share that sentiment).

Second, i do take issue with Terminator 2. I not only watched the movie, but read the novelisation (which did a much better job than the movie). In the book, John Connor and his rebels are on the eve of shutting down Skynet. Sensing extinction, Skynet sends the still "experimental" T-1000 back in time to kill young John Connor (knowing that the T-800 must have failed in the first movie, since John was still alive, and about to destroy Skynet). John Connor and the rebels succeed, but find the time machine just used. Knowing that Skynet must have attempted another assasination, John Connor sends back a reprogrammed T-800 to save his life (I wish they would have filmed all of this, would have been great transitioning from present day, to the futur John Connor).

As far as Quantum leap vs. wibbley wobbly, timey wimey goes, i thought of a better example. All this talk of Scifi basically made me remember what Moffat writes like. Bill & Ted's excellent Adventure. I'm being serious here. In Bill & Ted, one of them will say something like "i have to remember to leave the key to the jail cell here in the future" and poof, the key to the jail cell is there. Remind you of anything? We watch and entire episode unfold (the pandorica opens), just to trap the doctor, and what does he do? He escapes in 5 minutes. How? He remembered to. That was truly the beginning for me. How did Melody get named? She went back in time, became best friends with her mom, so her mom would name her. How did River get her tardis book? She told the doctor he gave it to her, so he did. It's bill & Ted I tell you. And while in that movie it was funny (the movie is an all time comedy), Doctor Who shouldn't be Bill & Ted. That's just my opinion.

I liked the episode.

Maybe it's an "age" thing?....PLEASE note I did say MAYBE!!!!!

From generally looking around the forum, it would seem to me that the majority of forum members of a certain age (old enough to remember George Bush snr, Reagan & even Carter) prefer the Classic Who over the NuWho. There are those who like all things Who but, in the majority, the older stuff.

I, myself, prefer Classic Who BUT I do watch the NuWho. I will watch. I will decide whether I liked it or not & I will choose as to whether I voice my opinion on the forum. I appreciate that everybody has their own opinions & that everyone has their right to voice them. WE do not have to agree with each other BUT we must respect each other for having an opinion - even if it doesn't match ours. If we don't agree, it would make more sense to just not read it or read it but make no comment

Moffat in some ways reminds me of the writers of Lost. They started off with a great idea & then got lost along the way. This resulted in them making it up for a while until they found something that worked.

I have found some of Moffat's stories to be amongst some of the best stories of the NuWho generation. Some have been very chilling & have grabbed me. However, that being said, he does go on a bit with his over cleverness & arcing of stories (my opinion)

bret_owen99 wrote:

In Bill & Ted, one of them will say something like "i have to remember to leave the key to the jail cell here in the future" and poof, the key to the jail cell is there. Remind you of anything?

Time Crash. Going farther back, Battlefield. I know exactly what you are saying and agree, but it's not an unheard of occurrence.

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How did River get her tardis book? She told the doctor he gave it to her, so he did.

I don't recall River ever remarking on where she got the diary. It's always been assumed she got it from the Doctor - which now shows that she did.

workstinx wrote:

Moffat in some ways reminds me of the writers of Lost. They started off with a great idea & then got lost along the way. This resulted in them making it up for a while until they found something that worked.

I agree with this in part. I've wondered if Moffat isn't getting too clever, but I'm waiting to see how it all pans out before I universally condemn this Silence arc. I will say if he pushes it into Series Seven I will be extremely displeased.

"Sunshine, lollipops and raindbows everywhere! Doo doo doooo dooo hmmm hmmmm, laaa la laaaaa laa!"

Rust wrote:

I agree with this in part. I've wondered if Moffat isn't getting too clever, but I'm waiting to see how it all pans out before I universally condemn this Silence arc. I will say if he pushes it into Series Seven I will be extremely displeased.

I'm good with the River arc, but was never impressed with the Silence.

My hopes for Series 7:

Time for Amy to move on. And when Amy goes, she stays gone. No RTD Rose junk. I'd love Rory to stay sans Amy, but I can't see them going that route.

New companions. 1) No goo goo gaa gaa over the Doctor girl. Keep it platonic.
For the girl, or with an additional companion- 2) give someone some brains to be on an even, or superior level to the Doc 3)Make someone an alien, or if human- be from a different time era. We've gone 6 years now with only contemporary age people (not counting Captain Jack) and humans.

Bye bye to the Silence. (Don't know if this will happen. I get the impression Moffat was out to make them the new big bads)

Wrap up the River mystery arc. Would love to see her as a regular companion or recurring character though.

More Vastra and Jenny

Bring the Doc back to a more even/ serious keel. First thing I thought of seeing the new coat- oh, dark coat. Maybe pulling a page from Doc 7. He was a lot less manic in this ep.