S5E13: The Big Bang

I don't think I care for River Song. She's too dang snarky and evasive for my taste. And overly competent at seemingly everything - like Mara Jade in Star Wars.

In other words, a Mary Sue?

========================================
...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

I thought this episode was great. A fun use of time travel and we are left with such a great traveling team for the next series! I hope they keep the three together and Rory is given full companion status. For the record, I think River is an amazingly fun character. Sort of the Captain Jack character for Doctor 11.

Ronpur wrote:

So, you wish, like I do, that the clues we have seen over the season, and maybe taken notes for, should actually allow us to solve the thread of the season!!

I do! Though, to be honest, I'm not even sure there needs to be a "mystery" that comes together in the end. Seasons 3-5 of Buffy (and to a lesser extent Season 2) all had arcs that unfolded from the beginning, but I wouldn't call them "mysteries" -- at least not in the grand scheme -- since all of the questions were pretty much answered before the end. We learned who the Big Bad was; we gradually learned the Big Bad's ultimate plan; we knew how other characters (Faith, Riley, Dawn) factored into it; and we knew how the heroes were going to try to stop it. Sure, there were questions and such along the way, but by the end the only "mysteries" were whether the heroes would succeed (which was likely) and which of them would survive the final battle. I'm totally cool with that kind of setup.

Quote :

But, I hate a movie that I figure out halfway before I am supposed too(Sixth Sense!)

I don't even really mind that so much. I didn't figure out the Sixth Sense -- namely because I hadn't been "primed" to look for that kind of twist -- but I did figure out The Others and pretty much every movie I've seen since that had a similar twist. It doesn't mean those movies were done poorly (and so I don't hate them for it); it just means that I expect them to go down a certain way based on other material I've seen!

And in stories that proceed like the Buffy seasons I've mentioned above, it doesn't so much matter if the viewer figures it out at an early point because all of the pieces aren't in place. It's sort of like blurting out the answer to a Wheel of Fortune puzzle during the RSTLNE round (and after failing to guess a significant number of the remaining letters). Sure, you might be right -- you might even be obviously right from your point of view -- but it doesn't follow that the characters would come to that conclusion and act upon it (which could get them all killed) without further information.

River is fun at the moment. I do worry what her character is going to be like when we reach the "beginning" of her time with the Doctor. Unless, of course, my pet theory holds true in that she's known the Doctor for a long, long time (I suspect she's a survivor of Gallifrey, but not a Time Lady).

But I hope whatever Moffat does with River, it wraps up by next season. She's a fun guest character, but she's in danger of being over utilized.

Personally, I look forward to watching all the River Song episodes from her perspective (Her first encounter with the Doctor first, "Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead" last).


As for Rory, count me among the people hoping they add Arthur Darvill's name to the opening credits. It's been far too long since the Doctor has had multiple companions.


In regards to Season 5....what happened in Season 5 happened. Rory remembering being an Auton is proof enough of that. In regards to how it happened without the Cracks, I'm reminded of "The Waters of Mars" in regards to altering history - the details differ, but the overall story stays the same. Rory was never killed in "Cold Blood", for example. He remembers being killed the same way Amy remembered the Bishop's men - being a time traveler "alters" perception. He's aware he died and became an Auton, but it didn't happen because that did not take place. Wibbly Wobbley Timey Wimey.

However, the Earth seen in "The Big Bang" was an alternate reality. It was also a reality capable of handling paradoxes, because it was literally a world in a void - there was no universe structured around it. Hence how Amy could touch her younger self and how the Doctor could meet (and touch) his own self without fear of injury of breaking the time line - because outside Earth, Time did not exist.

EDIT: As for those who aren't exactly enjoying the mystery villain being left till next season: Would you really have enjoyed having to cram in a Villain Reveal in the midst of "The Big Bang"?

At first I thought it could have been done if they'd done away with the Dalek, but the story is structured such that you can't get rid of the Dalek at all. The Dalek was key in revealing that the Restoration Field contained a portion of the Universe (That never existed, as far as the Earth they were on was concerned) that could revive the Universe proper.

Really, there was no way in "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Big Bang" to fit in a Villain Reveal without doing a injustice to the villain.

Look at it this way: "Silence Will Fall" failed. Now we get fourteen episodes of build up and development of the mastermind behind the plot that took up the focus of this season.

It's less leaving loose ends to tie up and more ensuring every element gets the proper attention it deserves.

And finally, I have to say one thing I find most fun is the fact the Pandorica was instrumental in saving the Universe. Meaning the Alliance helped save the Universe, as they meant to even if it wasn't the way they expected.

While the Doctor did save the day, keep in mind he did it with the technology of his greatest enemies. It's as much a Dalek/Cybermen/Sontaran/etc victory as it is the Doctor's.

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

In other words, a Mary Sue?

========================================
...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

Indeed, Corvus!

Captain Jack is a better character. He was rakish and flawed and not entirely competent most of the time. (I still don't quite get him being put in charge of Torchwood, which is why that show doesn't really work for me)

River just irritates me. Her brashness just doesn't feel right, and her lack of forthrightness just comes off annoying. Maybe I just wanna know what/who she is already, but I don't care for the character personally.

Wes Crayon wrote:

I think you might be placing too much faith in the writers! Some questions will obviously be answered at some point, but I think the bulk of them will be dropped completely. What's your preference when it comes to sloppy, inorganic answers or no answers at all?

To answer your question: no answers at all. If I have to pick one problem or the other, that's my choice.

As I look over your responses, I see an interesting pattern emerging. I may, as you say, place too much faith in the writers and expect they'll try to resolve some points, but you're the opposite side of the same assumptive coin: you assume they can't/won't. We're both evalating the series based (at least in some small measure) on what we expect the writers to do next. I have no idea what to make of that, but I find it interesting!

Quote :

Some of them, at least. I don't expect the alliance to ever be mentioned again.

That would kind of surprise me. It would be a huge logical oversight, and nothing Moffat has done thus far would suggest to me that he's that sloppy. He may take some stylistic shortcuts here and there (and to be fair, what TV writer doesn't?), but I can't recall ever thinking he was just straight-up lazy. My guess is that the voice in the TARDIS has something to do with the creation of the alliance...that voice may well be the voice of whoever planted that seed, if you will. Am I speculating? Sure, but the connection there just feels so obvious to me.

Quote :

When you say that the Doctor "engineered" the situation, do you mean deliberately or accidentally?

Well, a little of both! He fought until he couldn't fight anymore, planning, plotting, adjusting, readjusting...until he saw no more angles to play. But as the Doctor said, he had picked Amy in the first place because she was special, and even if he couldn't foresee just how that would come into play (not entirely, anyhow), he had positioned precisely the right person to play the final card he could not play himself. It was a classic Doctor bit: part planning, part dumb luck, all Doctor.

Quote :

Do you think they will? I'm pretty confident they won't...

Like I said, we just seem to make different assumptions. I guess we'll find out next season how far-ranging Moffat's plan really is...or isn't!

Quote :

So this may be a "win," but I would hardly call it a "triumph" or even a satisfying ending to the series as a whole. It was a semi-satisfying resolution to the two-part episode.

That "win, but not a triumph" feeling is exactly what I was getting at with my Pyrrhus reference.

Quote :

It's really the whole storytelling method -- of not only this series, but of the 2005+ series in general -- that I take issue with. In my book, if you want to tell a grand, episode-spanning arc, then you do that. It's okay to have some (even a majority) of standalone episodes, but every time the arc comes up there should be some substantial additions to the puzzle -- such that, by the time you reach the penultimate episode, the puzzle should be nearly complete rather than still being largely unfinished.

Fair enough. I even agree to a point: I too would prefer actual clues to a greater mystery over mere reminders that there's this other big plotline simmering in the background. Since Who seasons are so short, though, and Moffat has complained about that very fact himself, I don't think he wants us thinking in terms of single-season arcs anymore, and we should expect things to carry over. Now, the problems with that way of thinking: if that's his intent, it's another big chance taken by Moffat, since that is not going to work for a good chunk of the audience. Also, it takes the same chances that ended up really hurting shows like Carnivale: you may have a big, multi-season tale to tell, but if you don't get all those seasons in which to tell it, you aren't going to please anyone, are you? (There's a Colin Baker comparison to be made here, but I'll let someone else make it.)

Quote :

I'm not sure that the Whedon comparison is apt -- Buffy had a lot of heart but also built towards resolutions in what I found to be a very satisfying manner (think of how we begin most of the seasons without knowing who the Big Bad is to knowing all about the Big Bad and his/her ultimate plan by the end); Dollhouse had amazingly little of all of the above -- but I do think RTD is more focused on eliciting emotional responses and regards plotting and internal logic as secondary in his stories.

Agreed on all points here, especially with how effective Whedon was on building both characters and arcs in Buffy while later seeming summarily incapable of doing the same for Dollhouse. And RTD is definitely focused heavily on the dramatic, emotional aspects of everything he writes; just look at the rest of the man's output to confirm it!

Quote :

I'm hesitant to say that Moffat writes from the "brain" though. He does seem more focused on being "clever," but whereas his single episodes generally tie things together in an impressively neat fashion, his work doesn't strike me as being especially "intellectual" or "deep." Given how much Whedon seemed focused on that as well (especially in terms of dialogue), I'd actually argue that Moffat's work is more comparable to Whedon's than RTD's.

I think I agree with most of these points, too, though I would still agree with Bret that Moffat skews closer to "brain" than "heart," if such distinctions matter. I agree with you on the whole, though. If Moffat was concerned with being "intellectual," he wouldn't delve so deeply into fairy tale concepts and would hew closer to hard sci-fi; if he was being "deep," he'd tell cosmic stories with tons of subtext. I'm glad he's content with being "just" clever, because none of those things would be very much in keeping with the Doctor Who spirit. When Doctor Who uses subtext (and all good sci-fi does to at least some degree), it does so as flavoring; same with its occasional dalliances with cosmic ideas. As far as hard sci-fi, well, this show has never even tried to work on that level, which is probably for the best.

Rust wrote:

But I hope whatever Moffat does with River, it wraps up by next season. She's a fun guest character, but she's in danger of being over utilized.

Absolute agreement, here! I have really come to enjoy the character, but I hope Moffat has the sense not to drag things out too long with her and make the whole thing feel tired. Half the reason I don't care for Torchwood is that I preferred to see Jack every now and then, not every episode...some characters are just more enjoyable in smallish doses.

Quote :

As for Rory, count me among the people hoping they add Arthur Darvill's name to the opening credits. It's been far too long since the Doctor has had multiple companions.

Absolutely! Having a couple traveling with the Doctor puts him back into that paternal role in which the character is so effective, too, and I can't wait to see it!

Quote :

EDIT: As for those who aren't exactly enjoying the mystery villain being left till next season: Would you really have enjoyed having to cram in a Villain Reveal in the midst of "The Big Bang"?...Really, there was no way in "The Pandorica Opens" and "The Big Bang" to fit in a Villain Reveal without doing a injustice to the villain.

Look at it this way: "Silence Will Fall" failed. Now we get fourteen episodes of build up and development of the mastermind behind the plot that took up the focus of this season.

It's less leaving loose ends to tie up and more ensuring every element gets the proper attention it deserves.

This is the direction I'm leaning, too. Of couse, the long wait for a good wrap-up means I will be twice as cheesed off if Moffat blows it, but I have no reason to assume he will.

mysterylad wrote:

This is the direction I'm leaning, too. Of couse, the long wait for a good wrap-up means I will be twice as cheesed off if Moffat blows it, but I have no reason to assume he will.

Personally, I hope it's a sign the mastermind won't simply be one of the Doctor's old enemies with a new scheme. With fourteen episodes to play with, I really hope Moffat uses the opportunity to craft a new nemesis for the Doctor.

Rust wrote:

Personally, I hope it's a sign the mastermind won't simply be one of the Doctor's old enemies with a new scheme. With fourteen episodes to play with, I really hope Moffat uses the opportunity to craft a new nemesis for the Doctor.

Same here! I like the vintage monsters as much as the next Who fan, but if the show's going to remain vital and keep moving forward, it needs new menaces, too. There are still some vintage baddies I hope Moffat brings back (the Ice Warriors, for example), but I would really like to see some all-new alien races and a brand-new character emerge as the Doctor's new arch-enemy.

I cant belive its ended and that its only 4 days untill the Amy Pond figure is released!

This episode has won me over on Matt Smith. He's brilliant. I can't quite accept him as my Doctor, but I still enjoy him and am thoroughly looking forward to the new season.

I love how the Dalek begged for mercy, but ultimately it was still killed.

The poor thing.

~

Best finale yet since the new series started. Absolutely amazing, and it really moves.

River is still an enigma to us, not sure who she really is yet, but we know she will return. Matt Smith was awesome and I have finally accepted him as the Doctor (mostly due to these last two episodes), just not my Doctor, but still he was great.

I guess the only question I have is this. Is Rory still plastic? Because when the Doctor returns at the wedding reception he says "I was plastic." They remember what happened, everything, but that also then leaves me wondering about him too.

I am definitely looking forward to the next season.

Oh, the part that got me the most was when the Doctor finally stepped into the crack because I then realised that my favourite Doctors never existed. Mentally I was hugging Eight tightly, definitely not wanting to let go.

I knew that he'd come back though. It's Doctor Who after all... and I had gotten spoiled on the wedding bit, so I knew that it was going to be okay.

Still... can I hug the Dalek and bring it over to the new Dalek planet?
~

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

Oh, the part that got me the most was when the Doctor finally stepped into the crack because I then realised that my favourite Doctors never existed. Mentally I was hugging Eight tightly, definitely not wanting to let go.

I knew that he'd come back though. It's Doctor Who after all... and I had gotten spoiled on the wedding bit, so I knew that it was going to be okay.

Still... can I hug the Dalek and bring it over to the new Dalek planet?
~

Just remember there were two of them, so while one may be gone, you can save the other one from River as well and take it to the new Dalek planet.

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

This episode has won me over on Matt Smith. He's brilliant. I can't quite accept him as my Doctor, but I still enjoy him and am thoroughly looking forward to the new season.

I'm happy to hear this. I know you were still missing Tennant quite a lot, so it's good to hear Smith has finally clicked with you.

mysterylad wrote:

a1cmustangpilot wrote:

This episode has won me over on Matt Smith. He's brilliant. I can't quite accept him as my Doctor, but I still enjoy him and am thoroughly looking forward to the new season.

I'm happy to hear this. I know you were still missing Tennant quite a lot, so it's good to hear Smith has finally clicked with you.

Yeah, I do miss Tennant a lot but in all honesty, I'm glad it was Matt Smith through this season finale because I would have hated to see Tennant executed by a Dalek, again... I'm still worried that now the Daleks won't appear again, whether RTD style or the new ones because of Amy's memory.

~

jonwes wrote:

I thought this episode was great. A fun use of time travel and we are left with such a great traveling team for the next series! I hope they keep the three together and Rory is given full companion status. For the record, I think River is an amazingly fun character. Sort of the Captain Jack character for Doctor 11.

I love River Song and even though I was hoping that Moff was going to wrap up everything in the finale I'm glad that he didn't now. If for no other reason because it means River will be back. I don't know why she still reminds me alot of Bernice Summerfield though.

BTW like a few other posters have mentioned, I too would like to watch all of the episodes in order from River's perspective. I think this could be fun and interesting too.

the main question was not answered, who is responsible for the crack in time, so i'm really disappointed. but that may turn out to be a good thing in the long run. otherwise i enjoyed the episode and i'm hoping in the christmas special they deal with what river said to the doctor about everything changing for him real soon.
question, robot rory died then right? kinda sad, since robo-rory is the one the who kept guard over amy for all those years not regular-rory.

I believe robot (Auton) Rory and human Rory are the same. Rory became human again because Amy "remembered" him that way, but I'm pretty sure all of his memories came back by the end of the story.

jfh1970 wrote:

I believe robot (Auton) Rory and human Rory are the same. Rory became human again because Amy "remembered" him that way, but I'm pretty sure all of his memories came back by the end of the story.

i was thinking that too but now i'm thinking they were separate individuals, and the robot rory was erased when the universe rebooted. but the auton rory was an exact copy of the human rory and he became more than just a regular auton when he truly realized his love for amy. though he still wasn't the first rory.
i'm also thinking that the current human rory has no memories of what the auton version did, though at the end of the episode rory did acknowledge that the doctor just saved the universe implying that he was aware of what the other version did so i could be wrong.

He has the memories, because he says "I was plastic!" as Amy rushes towards the TARDIS.

========================================
...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

Also, people are putting way too much stock in Amy's super memories, post-Universal Reboot. Rory recalled the Doctor all on his own as the TARDIS rematerialized.

As he himself asked "How could we forget the Doctor?", implying that Amy tethering the Doctor back to reality reawoke everyone's memories of the Doctor. I don't think Amy "remembered" anything back into existence. It simply went back to the way it was.

Sort of like a missing puzzle piece

========================================
...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

ok im going out there and sayin it i LOVE RIVERSONG.