Waters of Mars

I think all in all, after so many decades and stories, this episode did more to develop the Doctor as a character then anything else to come before it. And that's quite an accomplishment on RTD's part.

You really get in his head and begin to understand him.

It would have worked much better for me if the character development was done gradually. Instead it was like flipping a switch. Not really development, just instant change. It felt way too rushed for me.

Agreed -- but even then I would've been okay with the Valeyard turn if the switch hadn't been flicked back just as quickly. My anticipation of the next special would've been exponentially increased if the Doctor had remained "evil" to the end of this one. Davies has some good ideas (sometimes), but then the execution comes off as cheap and half-assed. This was one of those times.

As far as the story goes, I found the derivative water zombies crap to be completely yawnworthy -- and I was even more annoyed at the mention of the Ice Warriors. I just watched "The Curse of Peladon" the other week, and this was just rubbish in comparison. I miss the days when the Doctor would go to alien worlds and get involved with nuanced political situations instead of encountering single alien species that just want to wreak havoc and take over Earth. Meh.

Wes Crayon wrote:

I just watched "The Curse of Peladon" the other week, and this was just rubbish in comparison. I miss the days when the Doctor would go to alien worlds and get involved with nuanced political situations instead of encountering single alien species that just want to wreak havoc and take over Earth. Meh.

Never watch a Peladon episode before a New episode. I discovered that during Series 3. Both Peladon stories contain such a wide variety of aliens. Even the Peladonians have 5 different looks (Ruler, Priest, Champion, Guard, Miner). Add to that 5-6 different aliens. Other than End of the World the new series hasn't done this at all. And I've been very, very disappointed by it. That was one of my hopes for the New Series when it came back. Alien bars, hospitals, conferences, airports, all loaded with different species. Most other sci-fi shows do it, and I'm hoping Moffat does too.

For the most part, I've liked the RTD period; it hasn't been without flaw, but it's been pretty solid overall. Does it stack up to the classic show? That's entirely subjective: purely a matter of taste, and as such not really worth debating. That said, I think Moffat is clearly the best writer the modern show has used thus far, so I have very high expectations for his reign. I imagine we'll get a much more nuanced version of the future and the rich diversity of space on his watch.

Now, as far as Waters of Mars goes, I liked it. It reminded me of some of the Robert Holmes/Phillip Hinchliffe-era horror stories, and it was fun getting to experience that vibe again. I enjoyed the Doctor's flirtation with omnipotence, as I think it served to perform an important role in his narrative, perhaps reminding him why his people used to be against interfering...absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that. Was his reversal rushed? Yes, it was...but that's the reality of having such big stories to tell on such a tight timetable. In the old days fans had to endure stories that just didn't have the budget or time to be properly realized; now we're occasionally stuck with the occasional clumsy resolution. To every era its challenges, I guess.

By the way, I loved the Ice Warrior references in this one. Christian, what comic strip reference did you hear? I must have missed it.

He said heat works against the Ice Warriors and it worked against The Flood. There was the final 8th Doctor strip called The Flood about Cybermen and some liquid and stuff, I haven't read it since it was printed a few years ago.

I assumed that's the reference. I know he reffered to the aliens as a flood earlier in the episode but the way he made it sound was the flood it worked against was something he enountered before and not the Waters of Mars aliens. If you follow that?

Ah, The Flood. I read that just recently, and it was actually a Cybermen story. The line in the special said something about heat being how you stop a flood, but I don't think that had anything to do with the comic story.

ALTHOUGH, since the original ending of The Flood was supposed to have been the 8th Doctor's regeneration into the 9th, the line could have been an oblique reference to a regeneration that never-quite-was, which (given that 10 thought for a moment he was about to die) is kind of an interesting non-reference between two non-events.

I thought water played a part in The Flood? I remember everyone being... wet or something... and it was suppose to be a regeneration story? I liked how the last line of the 8th Doctor was "Fantastic!" that was slick in my opinion...

I just re-read the final couple of chapters to see what happened. Everyone did get wet; the Cybermen put some psychoactive agent into Earth's sky so that when it rained, the Cybermen could manipulate human emotions. The Doctor ended up absorbing a fragment of the space-time vortex to destroy the Cybermen and their clouds, though...he manipulated temporal energy to cause the Cybermen and their chemicals to instantly age away to nothing, ravaged by time. I suppose one could look at the art and assume that heat is the energy in question, but the dialogue confirms otherwise.

It's possible the show's writers remembered the strip's ending incorrectly, though, and that the line was intended to reference the strip. I'm sure it will come up in an interview at some point.

The Flood are the Waters of Mars aliens.

Per the official podcast, there was a deleted scene where the Doctor has a dialogue with one of the infected crewpersons where they refer to themselves as The Flood.

That's kind of... stupid from a writer's point of view. That explains why he's using the term Flood throughout the story. Of all scenes to drop, that one was dropped? Did they explain why other than time reasons?

you know, i think(imo) that he didn't "turn" evil. he had a mental break down. that's why it happened like a switch turning on, and that's why he regretted it at the end. i've had a couple(no jokes), and it was almost like watching a mirror. you usually have one when you care about something so much that you can't take it anymore. that's how he feels about humans. i think donna pushed him towards this "turn". before her, he had hardened himself, made tough decisions, walked away. after all her crying in series 4 and begging him to save so many people, is it any surprise that he couldn't walk away this time? he fought against time , and i think that's what will be the enemy in the next special, time itself. even the timelords set up rules to follow to stay on times good side. be he let his emotions get the best of him. time will hit him like a river pushing rocks down the stream. you can't mess with it, or it will push back, and in a big way.

my son( was ingenious enough to point out that Dw looked like a skeleton when he was walking away from the base. Brilliant lighting effect and very apt as he is currently a "Dead man walking". His turn to the darker side of absolute power was frightening. Brooke put him on notice, I think similar to Davros's tirade about "using"people. This ep really gave us a lot to think about and I think he will have to make a really big selfless sacrifice to reedem his recent transgressions. no reference intended towards Tiger.

I've just opened and started watching the Blu-Ray of this. It's gorgeous. My first Doctor Who blu-Ray.

i still love waters of mars, btw wish they would bring back the flood in the future, brilliant enemy.

Good episode. Loved the story line. But very creepy creatures.

While this topic is up here, I might as well say: "Waters of Mars" was brilliant because this was the episode in which I was looking forward to seeing Number Ten go.

David Tennant's acting was brilliant, especially as "The Time Lord Victorious". It's not every day an actor manages to take a beloved character and make you absolutely despise him and welcome his end.

While the Doctor learns his error at the end, it still helped pave the way for me to be receptive of the change over. And for that, I tell David Tennant: Bravo.

This was a brilliant, creepy episode. But Time Lord Victorious never ever made me dislike the Doctor...it made me feel for him. Especially when he realized what he'd done and that he'd made a horrific mistake...I'm afraid it made me love him all the more! David Tennant did a brilliant job...well, he did throughout his run!

I was kind of disapointed with Water of Mars. The ending just didn't work for me. Perhaps it was too sad or perhaps the over the top performance by DT just didn't work for me.

Gunny wrote:

I was kind of disapointed with Water of Mars. The ending just didn't work for me. Perhaps it was too sad or perhaps the over the top performance by DT just didn't work for me.

I can back you up on this. Great episode right until the end. Typical RTD, I guess.

vicki i agree with you wholeheartedly. rust, i don't know what to say to you or others who "hated" the doctor after his breakdown. tennant, and ten, took the doctor from being one dimensional, and giving him different feelings, emotions, and goals.

not every doctor is completely good(number six pops to mind), but that doesn't mean i hate them. tennant, and ten, had the biggest character arc ever, and that made me wish for him to stay even more, however, his character had nowhere left to go but redeem himself in the end of time. and that's what he did.

Eh.

I like Tennant's run as the Doctor. But the Complete Specials bug the crap out of me, because it's RTD turning the Doctor into Broody McEmoPants, all sad and lonely. As Sarah Jane points out to him, he's got the biggest family anyone could ever wish for. The Doctor sulks about how they all go "their separate ways", but the truth is not a single one of them are gone. The Doctor's never learned that he can stay in contact with these people. They aren't going to push him away, but neither are they going to follow him constantly into danger.

I don't mind a serious Doctor. I don't mind a complex Doctor. But the Doctor character arc that culminated in "The Time Lord Victorious" I highly dislike. He'd gone from someone with Survivor's Guilt and PTSD and devolved into a Teenager denied an iPod.

From the sounds of things, between "Waters of Mars" and "The End of Time", he had plenty more adventures. The beginning of "The End of Time" was the Doctor I enjoy - snarky and goofy, with a solid core of competence. But he quickly reverted into sulk mode at the revelation he was going to die.

Yeah, from a character perspective, the Doctor's faced the possibility of Death without Regeneration, and so it makes sense he'd be a little Melancholy, but that whole story was sabotaged by the fact we knew who had been cast as the Eleventh Doctor.

I suppose that's the real issue. All the "impact" RTD was building up to...we already knew how it was going to end. So when the Doctor's ranting at the end of "Waters", or throwing his hissy fit at the end of "EoT", it just comes across as petulant whining on his part.

Maybe I should go back and revisit those stories with the air of someone who doesn't "know" what's going to happen. View it through the eyes of a mortal (Despite the fact throughout RTD's run the Doctor has been a "Lonely god"), and within the story itself.

But speaking as a viewer, who knew the next Doctor had been cast, the whole impact was lost.

Can you imagine how some of his earlier incarnations (Specifically Three and Five) would have reacted if they'd heard his tantrum? It'd be a race to see which incarnation would be fastest in wapping him across the back of his head.

TheDoctor88 wrote:

Good episode. Loved the story line. But very creepy creatures.

I agree.

Rust wrote:

Yeah, from a character perspective, the Doctor's faced the possibility of Death without Regeneration, and so it makes sense he'd be a little Melancholy, but that whole story was sabotaged by the fact we knew who had been cast as the Eleventh Doctor.

That was where I thought RTD really failed, trying to give us the idea that maybe the Doctor wouldn't regenerate this time, when we already knew Matt Smith had been cast as the 11th Doctor. A lot of his plot devices just looked silly in that light.

The part of "The End of Time" that always will bother me is when the Doctor leaps out of the speeding Spacecraft, through a window, and onto a hard floor - stomach first.

My suspension of disbelief goes a long, long way (I don't even bat an eye at a whole planet of Masters!)...but to walk away from something like that with only scratches...

Yeah. Right. Alien Physiology. Uh-huh. So how come the force of impact didn't sent bone fragments of his ribs into both his hearts? Good way to die without benefit of a regeneration right there.