S7E13: Nightmare in Silver (SPOILERS)

Wes Crayon wrote:

I hated this episode. HATED. I don't know that I agree with Cruel Angel that it was the worst of the series so far, but I definitely hated it the most.

But how do you really feel?

Wes Crayon wrote:

Biggest problem for me -- bigger than the awful children, the weaksauce Cybermen (that first one broke out Flash speed to punch out a fat guy, then the army never used that technique again? I'd spam the heck out of that special move!), and the designs clearly cribbed from the Borg and the suitcase armor from Iron Man 2

I think the main point of the flash speed move was to secure the girl. It you think about it, it probably took a lot of energy to execute such a move. Considering the controller couldn't play chess and control an army of cybermen at the same time, it's likely that he could not do the move during the battle.

Wes Crayon wrote:

-- the crap exchanges between the Doctor and "Mr. Clever." Gaiman actually had the audacity to write Clever scolding the Doctor for his emotions.

EXCEPT MR. CLEVER DID NOTHING BUT EMOTE IN EVERY BLASTED LINE HE SPOKE.

So effing stupid, and since so much of the episode focused on that (and since it would have been the best part of the episode if it hadn't been destroyed for me because Cyberminds should not be snarling and passionate and excitable) I just found myself getting angrier and angrier as the episode went on.

I took that to be that the cybermind was being influenced by the doctor's emotions as the doctor was being influenced by the cybermind. Also, the cyber mind only seemed to tap into the doctor's darker emotions of anger and lust. . . .as if drawing strength from it.

Wes Crayon wrote:

Does Doctor Who have script editors? Does anyone review anything before episodes go into production?? Dear lord, how does this crap happen???

These are questions that I will answer in my ask the Timewarrior thread! If asked that is.

Wes Crayon wrote:

Biggest problem for me -- bigger than the awful children, the weaksauce Cybermen (that first one broke out Flash speed to punch out a fat guy, then the army never used that technique again? I'd spam the heck out of that special move!)

Yeah, presuming you had infinite energy to spam it. Truthfully, it was a gigantic risk for the Cybermen to take as it was, as SOP for dealing with a Cyberman was imploding the planet. They needed the kids for the Cyber Planner that badly that they were willing to risk elimination for it.

Also, the way I personally took that scene was the device malfunctioned, hence why the Cyberman was spotted at all - there's a bit where it speeds forwards then halts...as though there's been a malfunction.

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and the designs clearly cribbed from the Borg and the suitcase armor from Iron Man 2

Um...no. They're pretty much a typical Cyber Evolution in terms of design. Only difference being is they've gone and put a plate over those circuits that normally cover their chest.

As for the Borg cribs...why the heck not? A thousand years after a galaxy destroying war...why wouldn't they adapt for the weaponry and learn from their mistakes? As I've said elsewhere:

The Cybermen have adapted. For the first time in their existence, they've compensated for their weaknesses. Much like Oswin erasing all knowledge of the Doctor from the Dalek Empire...this establishes a brand new status quo for the Cybermen. They can upgrade and adapt any living tissue now, meaning the Doctor can't just waltz in and disrupt their plans with nary a care. He's vulnerable to them...heck, the Daleks are vulnerable to them.

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-- the crap exchanges between the Doctor and "Mr. Clever." Gaiman actually had the audacity to write Clever scolding the Doctor for his emotions.

EXCEPT MR. CLEVER DID NOTHING BUT EMOTE IN EVERY BLASTED LINE HE SPOKE.

He was emoting, but he wasn't showing any emotion. People tend to get "ranting" confused with "passion".

Listen to the Cyber Planner's dialogue again and realize what he's trying to do is pull the Doctor off balance to seize control of his mind. The Cyber Planner raved, true, but he had no more emotion in it then the Cyber Leader in Earthshock - or, for that matter - the Cyber Controller from City of Steel. The Cyber Commanders tend to get away with a bit more leeway in regards to emotion. Even the Tenth Planet didn't see the Cybermen devoid of the ability to emote...they just had no emotional connection behind their rhetoric.

"and the designs clearly cribbed from the Borg and the suitcase armor from Iron Man 2"

The Cybermen - 1963 The Borg 1989

I always felt the Borg were a cyberman copy but done much better than the cybermen. The borg were always what I wanted the cybermen to be... Humans with technology added, I guess like the 10th planet cybermen were... but then it all changed to the full helmet and silver suits.

Finally though the Cybermen can now upgrade and assimilate to overcome obstacles

And seeing as the body-suits of Iron man, Batman, Superman all have the same look I did not surprise me to see the Cybermen go the same way as well.

timewarrior wrote:

Wes Crayon wrote:

I hated this episode. HATED. I don't know that I agree with Cruel Angel that it was the worst of the series so far, but I definitely hated it the most.

But how do you really feel?

Have you got forever and a day?

timewarrior wrote:

Wes Crayon wrote:

Biggest problem for me -- bigger than the awful children, the weaksauce Cybermen (that first one broke out Flash speed to punch out a fat guy, then the army never used that technique again? I'd spam the heck out of that special move!), and the designs clearly cribbed from the Borg and the suitcase armor from Iron Man 2

...It you think about it, it probably took a lot of energy to execute such a move.

(Consider those of you who made similar points quoted as well )

Makes sense... but none of the explanations you guys suggest are mentioned in the episode. All we see is a Cyberman executing an awesome, useful technique and then we never once see it use that attack again, and I have no inclination to give an episode a pass for something that wasn't addressed in it. I don't understand you guys' obsession with winning no-prizes. ;P

timewarrior wrote:

Wes Crayon wrote:

-- the crap exchanges between the Doctor and "Mr. Clever." Gaiman actually had the audacity to write Clever scolding the Doctor for his emotions.

EXCEPT MR. CLEVER DID NOTHING BUT EMOTE IN EVERY BLASTED LINE HE SPOKE.

I took that to be that the cybermind was being influenced by the doctor's emotions as the doctor was being influenced by the cybermind. Also, the cyber mind only seemed to tap into the doctor's darker emotions of anger and lust. . . .as if drawing strength from it.

I had that idea as well, but the episode made no explicit mention of the point. The Cybermind also didn't seem especially concerned about the emotions -- it reveled in the emotions and chewed the scenery -- whereas, considering the significance of emotional deadness to the Cybermen, one would (or SHOULD) at least expect some sort of rejection of that influence. And yes, the Cybermind did focus on the negative emotions, but a negative emotion is still an emotion (and one that led to the failure of the Cybermen in this particular instance).

Rust wrote:

He was emoting, but he wasn't showing any emotion. People tend to get "ranting" confused with "passion".

Listen to the Cyber Planner's dialogue again and realize what he's trying to do is pull the Doctor off balance to seize control of his mind. The Cyber Planner raved, true, but he had no more emotion in it then the Cyber Leader in Earthshock - or, for that matter - the Cyber Controller from City of Steel.

I was using "emote" to mean "showing emotion" -- so it doesn't make sense to say that Mr. Clever was "emoting, but... wasn't showing any emotion." I'd also argue that true ranting requires passion, albeit of a negative sort. Yes, one can feign emotion -- which is what I take it you're suggesting was happening -- except (among other things) Mr. Clever's fierce obsession with knowing the Doctor's three moves and ultimate failure because of that obsession suggests that his emotion was genuine. Also, if his plan was to unbalance the Doctor, it clearly failed. (Your point here fails to consider the deeper suggestion that an emotional void would be far more unsettling and arguably more crippling than a raving enemy. How many such foes has the Doctor met and beaten with ease?)

As far as the mention of "Earthshock" (not familiar with "City of Steel"; what's that?), yes, the Cyber Leader did emote in that. But that serial is also kinda ridiculous in that respect, and we've always pointed and laughed at how clearly flustered that Cyberman becomes. Poor writing and inconsistencies in the past don't justify poor writing and inconsistencies in the present, nor can these be excused (for me, anyway) by dedicated fans who covet no-prizes.

I will ask you questions, timewarrior! Off to look for your thread.

Wes Crayon wrote:

(Consider those of you who made similar points quoted as well )

Makes sense... but none of the explanations you guys suggest are mentioned in the episode. All we see is a Cyberman executing an awesome, useful technique and then we never once see it use that attack again, and I have no inclination to give an episode a pass for something that wasn't addressed in it. I don't understand you guys' obsession with winning no-prizes. ;P

Well, okay...consider it this way then - The Cybermen were up against a Punishment Platoon. It probably wasn't logical to expend the energy on the Hyper Speed against an enemy that can't even put up a decent fight. Also it could be claimed that the ones killed by the Cyber Gun were deliberate sacrifices to give the Cybermind the data it needed to develop a on-the-fly countermeasure. When your army numbers 3 million, a handful of sacrifices to develop a counter agent against a ancient and potent weapon would seem very appealing.

No, it wasn't addressed in the episode. But given the episode's pacing I'm not sure how they could have worked it into there. Besides, Gaiman is at his heart a story teller...you never give the audience everything. You give them something to chew over.

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I had that idea as well, but the episode made no explicit mention of the point. The Cybermind also didn't seem especially concerned about the emotions -- it reveled in the emotions and chewed the scenery -- whereas, considering the significance of emotional deadness to the Cybermen, one would (or SHOULD) at least expect some sort of rejection of that influence. And yes, the Cybermind did focus on the negative emotions, but a negative emotion is still an emotion (and one that led to the failure of the Cybermen in this particular instance).

...

I was using "emote" to mean "showing emotion" -- so it doesn't make sense to say that Mr. Clever was "emoting, but... wasn't showing any emotion." I'd also argue that true ranting requires passion, albeit of a negative sort. Yes, one can feign emotion -- which is what I take it you're suggesting was happening -- except (among other things) Mr. Clever's fierce obsession with knowing the Doctor's three moves and ultimate failure because of that obsession suggests that his emotion was genuine. Also, if his plan was to unbalance the Doctor, it clearly failed. (Your point here fails to consider the deeper suggestion that an emotional void would be far more unsettling and arguably more crippling than a raving enemy. How many such foes has the Doctor met and beaten with ease?)

As far as the mention of "Earthshock" (not familiar with "City of Steel"; what's that?), yes, the Cyber Leader did emote in that. But that serial is also kinda ridiculous in that respect, and we've always pointed and laughed at how clearly flustered that Cyberman becomes. Poor writing and inconsistencies in the past don't justify poor writing and inconsistencies in the present, nor can these be excused (for me, anyway) by dedicated fans who covet no-prizes.

Fair's fair, I suppose. To me, the Cyber Planner's flamboyant personality didn't strike me as odd, as it was explained they abducted the children partly because the Cyber Planner needed their capacity for limitless imagination (Interesting that - it's the same reason the "Renegade" Daleks used a Human Child as their Battle Computer in Remembrance of the Daleks).

If you're going to use imagination, you almost need a emotional basis to work from. Then again, it may simply be a unforseen side effect of the new conversion process. This was the first time they successfully converted a Time Lord (All be it temporarily).

About the Cybermen design....I have been thinking that the new costume looks like a human with the skin stripped off. With muscles made of metal. And the face looks a bit more rounded and human like, not like the previous version with the cut out cheeks.
I still don't think the horror of what the are has been exploited at all. They are more formidable opponents now, but not scary.

This story is much better if you don't compare it to The Doctor's Wife because that's a high bar to clear even for Gaiman. According to him, some explanatory scenes got cut, but it didn't feel like it was butchered as much as most episodes this year.
My biggest problem was once again a massively boneheaded decision by the Doctor. Instead of having the kids sleep in the creepy waxworks that he knows is filled with strange insects, why didn't he have them sleep in the TARDIS or take them home?
Warwick Davis is awesome & needs to be in everything!
The Cybermen revamp wasn't quite as successful as it could've been. The direction needed to be more consistently horrific in tone. Making the punishment platoon of comedy relief oddballs instead of grizzled vets undermined their badassery too. In general, Cybermen are a catch-22: If they emphasize how dehumanizing being converted is, they aren't that much of a threat because there's too much human in them. If they play up the threating technological upgrades they're less horrifying because they're barely human. The Cybermen should've run superfast more often or not at all. I have some trouble accepting that they can upgrade themselves so fast to physical weaknesses. I did appreciate that the Cyberiad was so dangerous that whole galaxies had to be vaporized if a single Cyberman was there.
Given how coldly calculating the Doctor can be, it doesn't surprise me that Mr. Clever wouldn't be so different from him. It seems logical that Cybermen would be more accepting of creativity after having pure logic fail them so often in the past.
Natty Longshoes' Comical Castle sounds like a cool place but it didn't appear comical on the show.
I'm glad Clara had some personality this episode. If she'd been informed about the mystery surrounding her & could look for clues she wouldn't feel like shes just there. Too bad she didn't kick ass with the mace. More companions should be armed.
I liked that it was established that the Doctor isn't sexually attracted to Clara. He's only interested in her because she's an inscrutable riddle. Mr. Clever was just flirting with her because he thought it would trick her. I'm going to chalk the Doctor's line about her skirt up to lingering effects of Mr. Clever because he should be used to skirts after Amy. I really don't want Clara & the Doctor to get involved romantically.