S6E10: The Girl Who Waited

Rocco wrote:

Wes Crayon wrote:

Also, 36 years? Rory waited for freaking millennia. Someone should have mentioned that.

Someone answered this:

I get that Rory waited way longer for Amy, but there is a crucial difference,and it lies in agency... Amy has the right to complain that they left her, because she never asked to be left behind...

I'd like to add, Rory protected amy, he had a purpose in his mind, Amy was just left their to wonder if she'd ever be rescued.

Oh, I just meant that someone -- one of the characters -- in the episode should have mentioned it, given the more obvious similarities to Rory's experience (and given that the episode title, "The Girl Who Waited," is almost an exact reiteration of the epithet the Doctor used for Rory). The Doctor could have mentioned it in a throwaway line in response to Amy's mention of how long she waited (Doctor: Well, Rory waited for -- Rory: NOT HELPING.), or Present Amy could've scolded Old Amy for being so bitter about being left on her own for 36 years when their beautiful Rory waited so much longer for her. Or they could've done it a number of other ways. But yeah, I was more bothered by the lack of even a brief mention of a very similar and important development -- especially when they went on at length about Rory and it was probably the most significant example of his love for Amy.

Cruel Angel wrote:

kcooper76 wrote:

Wes Crayon - I agree completely about the Doctor. I wouldn't want to stay either.

Yup. If Amy and Rory were going to make the baby an issue, they say see ya to the Doc.

I didn't so much mean making it an issue (in the temporal rescue sense) as blaming the Doctor for failing to prevent it. (Though he does seem to be taking a rather cavalier attitude towards it all, not that Rory and Amy are treating it especially seriously themselves. Even if Amy and Rory accept that they can't rescue Melody, you'd think they'd still be a bit bitter about having their newborn stolen from them and raised by religious fanatics to be a wild stylish murderess.)

But in this case, I was mainly referring to Rory's explicit acknowledgment of how the Doctor's cavalier attitude and addiction to leaping before he looks are what get him -- and primarily his companions -- into danger (this has always been the case; even back when they went into the Dalek city way back in the second serial). Rory's rightly criticized the Doctor a number of times, but his "I DON'T WANT TO TRAVEL WITH YOU" was easily the finest. Especially considering how the Doctor legitimately betrayed Amy at the end and nearly forced Rory to do the same (that Old Amy gave him her blessing to do so gives his conscience a bit of leeway), he should stick to that declaration.

But he won't, because Amy loves the adventure and he wants to be there for that. Still, I'd really like to see more open hostility from Rory towards the Doctor -- he'd be completely justified in it. While I admittedly find Smith's portrayal of the Doctor to be interesting, he's quickly become the Doctor I'd least want to travel with if I were a companion.

I disagree. The doctor did what he had to do and ultimately saved Amy. Bu saving young Amy he prevented those 36years of heck for her. At the end, I don't believe it was him betraying Amy, You saw he didn't really want to do it but he had to. A paradox like that, who knows what might have happened (Probably the universe going kaboom again js). He told Rory he was going to save Amy and thats what he did. Not the best rescue but it still was a rescue. So instead of Amy going through 36years of heck, he saved her. So what does Rory have to be upset about? He can't be upset that the doctor just saved his wife from 36years of heck. Like he said Old Amy will have never existed, No pain, Nothing just non existent.

It reminds me of cloning living beings. Are they real, are they equal? Yeah, in my opinion. Killing a clone of someone is just as wrong as killing a person, because it's the same thing. Different people maybe, but if the being has blood pumping through their body and can think for him/herself then the being is real.

This is just the same for me. Old Amy was as real as Young Amy, killing her would be just as bad as the other way around.

But ultimately he could only save one. If he saved both he'd rip apart the universe. So although in my eyes the Doctor did kill Old Amy, he also saved Young Amy from 36 years of pain and saved the universe from being cracked and crumbling apart.


It's interesting to see the controversy. We shouldn't argue over it though, let's enjoy the different ways that people think. I think it's supperly intriguing, personally.

Well, yes, we shouldn't be arguing in a combative sense! But I do think we can argue -- in the philosophical sense, e.g. explore and discuss -- our different viewpoints and interpretations without being any less amicable towards one another. We're not politicians, after all.

I definitely think the clone comparison is apt, Scary -- although I think the betrayal of Old Amy is even more significant here. Old Amy isn't "just" a clone of (Current) Amy -- she is Amy. And yes, by saving one Amy, I definitely think that the Doctor did kill the other.

But that's admittedly understandable (though highly unfortunate), given that the Doctor could only save one. What I take more issue with is that he put the choice on Rory's conscience -- and that he lied to Amy (both of the Amys) about what would happen. That's justifiable to him, Amy might accept it, Old Amy might not care because she'll be dead/never have existed, but the ONE person that should really not sit well with is Rory. Sure, he loves Amy and is always glad to be with her, but he shouldn't be grateful. The Doctor got them into the mess to begin with, after all -- and the Doctor betrayed (Old) Amy in the worst way to get them out of it.

And, quite frankly, this was unbecoming of the Doctor. I always like to think of the Doctor as the man who finds a way -- who's always able to take the high road and doesn't have to resort to betrayals and underhandedness to come out ahead. More than any other Doctor that I can remember, Smith's Doctor seems to embrace this modus operandi: we don't even see him trying to find a better way, just lying about being able to do it and hardly struggling with the tough choices he has to make. He also strikes me as incredibly selfish and manipulative. I have a hard time seeing Davison's Doctor hiding out in the TARDIS for fear of contracting plague, for example -- he'd have been looking for a way to immunize himself so he could get out there and help hands on. Smith's Doctor hung back in the TARDIS telling lies and trying to justify his ignorance by simply saying "that's now how I roll."

Like I said, it's an interesting and certainly different portrayal of the Doctor, but it is not one I find endearing or inspiring. It might even be perfect if the companions actually recognized it and responded accordingly -- but all we get are short critiques from Rory or River or the Villain of the Week and then it's back to acting like the Doctor is Mr. Wonderful-Can-Do-No-Wrong.

Glad the older Amy didn't make it! 2 screachy & shouty ginger whingers in the TARDIS would be too cruel for my TV speakers.

Fairly emotive episode 5-6/10

Wes Crayon wrote:

And, quite frankly, this was unbecoming of the Doctor. I always like to think of the Doctor as the man who finds a way -- who's always able to take the high road and doesn't have to resort to betrayals and underhandedness to come out ahead. More than any other Doctor that I can remember, Smith's Doctor seems to embrace this modus operandi: we don't even see him trying to find a better way, just lying about being able to do it and hardly struggling with the tough choices he has to make. He also strikes me as incredibly selfish and manipulative. I have a hard time seeing Davison's Doctor hiding out in the TARDIS for fear of contracting plague, for example -- he'd have been looking for a way to immunize himself so he could get out there and help hands on. Smith's Doctor hung back in the TARDIS telling lies and trying to justify his ignorance by simply saying "that's now how I roll."

This part of your comments I agree with completely. Between his behavior in these such episodes, and his goofy, overly childish attitude at other times, he is one of my least favorite Doctors.

It is a good point. Get back to the Tardis, strap into an environment suit, and away we go.

A fun episode and one where I thought Rory actually got a bit of acting to do. Dr Who doesn't often do a straight sci-fi tale where the characters put in a bizare moral conundrum due to time travel. The writer gave our regulars some tough choices and didn't provide a silly magical ending to escape the drama at the climax. The Doctor doesn't come off as an unstoppable, heroic juggernaut able to bend any rule to get his way. He's once again powerless to save everyone (Adric, everyone on Fang Rock, Day of the Daleks) and is just trying to salvage some kind of victory.

The story doesn't seem to really fit well into either half of this series and far as the rest of the story arc business, but it was an intersting standalone tale that I'm glad they included. I'm willing to just play along and be convinced that the story arc drama has all played out and everyone has come to terms with it. At least until the finale when I'm sure it will rear its head again.

I liked this one very much. Probably my favorite so far this year. I agree with Ronpur and rdks on this. Very "classic" in its style.

Rocco wrote:

denali76c wrote:

any chance that old amy somehow survived and because of her bitterness and dislike for the doctor killed him in the "The Impossible Astronaut". the doctor did say "oh it's you" to the astronaut. and it could explain why the doctor told amy to stay away when the astronaut emerged from the lake in that he didn't want amy to come into contact with her other self, which might cause a paradox.

No, she doesn't exist anymore because of young amy being rescued.



I think all 3 of them to stay away because he knew he was about to be killed.

with a show like doctor who that deals with time travel, alternate realities, parallel universes, universe ending paradoxes, can you truly ...truly rule out old amy somehow surviving. conventionally i was aware she couldn't have made it, what i'm thinking of is the what if and doctor who loves to deal with the what if.

rdks wrote:

Watched it a second time, and enjoyed it much, much more. My first time watching I wasn't prepared for such a dialogue heavy episode, so this time I knew what I was getting into and payed close attention and it made much more sense.

What really helped, and what prompted me to watch it again, was Ronpur's comparison to The Space Museum. I love that episode and when I read that I instantly drew parallels to it. So when I re-watched it I did so with the kind of mentality I'd have before watching The Space Museum, and it worked so much better. Good call, Ronpur.

doesnt ronpur just have that affect on people, i always love reading his insights like a wise obi wan kenobi of the forum he offers his sage insights with an infectious love for who. i love reading his and your insights rdks. i love these post who episode breakdowns because they offer things i might have missed. three cheers for ronpur! i really enjoyed this episode. i know we are in an era of completely different tv styles from the original show but i would love to see a season without a huge arc and just get back to some good ole pertwee in the who mobile, non love triangle pure fun who stories again. lol

I loved this episode!!

hitman hart wrote:

rdks wrote:

Watched it a second time, and enjoyed it much, much more. My first time watching I wasn't prepared for such a dialogue heavy episode, so this time I knew what I was getting into and payed close attention and it made much more sense.

What really helped, and what prompted me to watch it again, was Ronpur's comparison to The Space Museum. I love that episode and when I read that I instantly drew parallels to it. So when I re-watched it I did so with the kind of mentality I'd have before watching The Space Museum, and it worked so much better. Good call, Ronpur.

doesnt ronpur just have that affect on people, i always love reading his insights like a wise obi wan kenobi of the forum he offers his sage insights with an infectious love for who. i love reading his and your insights rdks. i love these post who episode breakdowns because they offer things i might have missed. three cheers for ronpur! i really enjoyed this episode. i know we are in an era of completely different tv styles from the original show but i would love to see a season without a huge arc and just get back to some good ole pertwee in the who mobile, non love triangle pure fun who stories again. lol

oh, stop it,lol!!

But thanks.

Excellent and highly original episode.

Interesting discussion... here's my unsolicited take on the issues raised:

The fact that they are not spending the rest of this season chasing after baby Melody is not really the problem - it is rather that the writers did not take the time to portray the complexities of Amy and Rory's situation a little better in the dialogue. There are all sorts of reasons why they cannot (or should not) risk messing with River's timeline. For example, she saved the Doctor in the Library, who in turn saved Earth.
The Doctor knows this, but Amy and Rory don't. That couple must be going through all kinds of confused emotions about Melody/River and their missing child, which was born in such unusual circumstances that Amy didn't even know it was happening until she was about to pop. AND she's a Timelord...ish...person. AND they knew her as an adult before she was even conceived. That has got to be strange for them, to say the least.
Of course they would want to find their baby, but the case against trying to do so is solid, purely in terms of temporal consequences, but also because of the knowledge that River turns out okay, and spent a lot of her life with Amy and Rory when she was Mels. She was brainwashed to kill the Doctor, but her psychopathy does not seem to extend much beyond that.
Whew.... so as I was saying, the real problem is that we are not seeing Amy and Rory go through a believable level of angst and confusion over what they have been through.

But hey, it's Sci Fi, not Days of our Lives. Even so, a little bit of attention to these subtleties would be welcome. In its eagerness to be surreal and high-concept, this show can sometimes be a bit blind to the obvious. But to be fair, we haven't seen the whole series yet.

Great ending to this latest episode. The Doctor did what he had to do by saving the young Amy, but he messed up big by dropping them into that hellish situation in the first place. Back in the old days, the Doctor would take the time to analyse the environment in which the Tardis had landed before going outside. Could be time to start doing that again... especially after that time he casually took Rose to the edge of a Black Hole on a Planet inhabited by Satan... he's clever, he should learn from these experiences... but I suppose that would not be as much fun to watch.

Re: the 11th doctor's apparent selfishness at times, I think it's a deliberate choice by Moffat to let us see more of the flaws in his character. His whims have always placed his companions at risk, and that point was driven home with the Tardis holograms in "Let's Kill Hitler" (more guilt!....) He still acts with principle, and strives to help and protect his friends, but in his own flawed way, and the Doctor's morality has never been completely above criticism, in either the old or new series.
The recurring message of this season that "the doctor lies" is also meant to bring his flaws into the spotlight. Good thing too, it's more interesting. He's not Superman, and just as well because Superman sucks.
In this episode, I think he was doing all he could to help Amy and Rory, once the situation was apparent. He is better off operating the Tardis than going out and risking disease (which would doom both his companions) or getting lost in a different timestream. His actions were entirely practical.

I enjoy that the current producers aren't afraid to depict the Doctor as dangerous and flawed; this aspect of the character's personality has a history on the show (the First, Sixth, and Seventh Doctors were all capable of being cold, even cruel when they needed to be) and is worth exploring now and then. He isn't human...that bears remembering. While a moral being, his morality operates on different levels than our own. Sometimes, he makes terrible decisions because he's thinking about the big picture; sometimes, he makes terrible decisions because he is pushing 1000 and just doesn't think (or prioritize) the way we do.

After being so underwhelmed by "Night Terrors," this episode was exactly what I needed from a Doctor Who episode. Some fun timey-wimey convolutions, good character beats (especially for Rory), and a solid self-contained story. Was it perfect? Nah...but then, what is?

Eternal wrote:

Whew.... so as I was saying, the real problem is that we are not seeing Amy and Rory go through a believable level of angst and confusion over what they have been through.

But hey, it's Sci Fi, not Days of our Lives. Even so, a little bit of attention to these subtleties would be welcome. In its eagerness to be surreal and high-concept, this show can sometimes be a bit blind to the obvious. But to be fair, we haven't seen the whole series yet.

Maybe that is what I really didn't like about the end of Kill Hitler; that River goes off to be mysterious and there is no big discussion about what just happened and what Amy and Rory want going forward. All the mystery is revealed and they have a bit of a run around, but it doesn't seem to mean much. If they had ended Kill Hitler with Amy/Rory arguing about, "We still need to save Melody! No we don't, we've already found her. Not my baby!" So the parents ask the Tuxedo Doctor (or even better would be to ask River herself while she's there) "What can we do next? Nothing? It sure was nice gowing up with you after being brainwashed. Bye, bye, River, we're done looking for you." Big emotional bit with Amy/Rory accepting things and deciding the search is over so let's go have a holiday with the Doctor. Then cut to River applying to archeology school and end the episode. Now we would have know that the search for Amy->Melody->Mels<-River was all over and the only arc left hanging is the Doctor dying. I'm sure there was 2 or 3 mintues of padding elsewhere so this conversation could have taken place. Going forward Amy and Rory wouldn't be accused of being the worst parents ever.

I'll have to rewatch Let's Kill Hitler when the searies comes out this fall to see if any of this was in there and I just missed it or it got cut for North America. Or maybe one of those 2 minute between episode shorts will cover all this. Or maybe they're saving all this for the end of season 2-parter (so in the meantime Amy and Rory are the worst parents ever for three episodes).

How does Mels/Melody/River get to the future at the end of Let's Kill Hitler?

Ok, so I finally watched this episode. I'm sure I'm surprising everyone by saying : I loved it! Yes, I know. Let me explain.

First off, it's a stand-alone episode with not even a hint of Moffat's story arc. That's a plus for me (too many episodes were ruined during part one of the series 6 by having Madame Kavorkian looking through walls, blah).

B, just like others have said, this is almost like a "Classic" episode. The only characters were the main characters, the robots, and the voice of the interface. Not a big budget, or cast, but with strong writing the story won me over. Moffat's stories tend to do the exact opposite for me.

3. The Doctor saved the day. It wasn't Amy, it wasn't Rory, it was the main character of the show. And how did he save the day? He lied. He manipulated. Personally, I think this is the darkest I've seen Matt Smith be in the new series. I knew he was lying the moment he started rambling off "doomsday machines" or the Tardis could hold the paradox.

Now I'm going to dwell on this point for a moment. As Mysterylad pointed out, 11 isn't the only Doctor who has lied or manipulated. 7 was just as comical at times, yet could turn on a dime. Tom Baker also had a way of talking his way out of situations (not really lying, but more manipulating in my view). 6 just did whatever he wanted, and was even put on trial.

My point is, the Doctor has many facets to his personality, just like everyone. He can't be nice, or comical all the time. I usually like the episodes where Smith is dark, because he pulls it off so well. Saying to Rory "I told you I saved her, what do you have to complain about?" is basically saying "I lied and manipulated all of you. But everything is back to the way it was before, and there's nothing you can do about it".

D. Old Amy (I'm really glad this episode wasn't Old Rory). That was the best character progression I've seen in her (even though I loathe the young one). Old Amy still loves Rory, but hates the Doctor. Anyone here saying she should have known he would come, should fight for their life for 36 years, just barely surviving day to day, and see how long they would keep the faith? I believe she even said a line as much as "I lost faith after a couple of decades". Completely understandable. I felt bad that she had to sacrifice herself at the end. Poor Rory would have let her in (I don't blame him for that). The Doctor is the one who put him and her in that position. He is the one who killed her. Very cold hearted (she isn't a clone, or an alternate timeline version, she is what he made her by going there in the first place).

In summary, if more episodes were like this, I would be enjoying 11's adventures better. It almost reminded me of the second doctor, with one female and one male companion. One gets in trouble, and the other one has to save, with the Doctor's help of course.

Finally watched this episode.

I just...eh. It wasn't a bad episode by any stretch of the imagination, but the resolution was never a doubt. I'll agree with the folks that remark it felt like a classic episode. Everyone gets a lot of good performance time but the story ultimately did nothing for me.

Calixar wrote:

How does Mels/Melody/River get to the future at the end of Let's Kill Hitler?

She bought a Vortex Manipulator from Dorium in The Pandorica Opens.

Scary wrote:

Calixar wrote:

How does Mels/Melody/River get to the future at the end of Let's Kill Hitler?

She bought a Vortex Manipulator from Dorium in The Pandorica Opens.

Since this is really the wrong thread I'll spoiler it:

Spoiler:

Why would someone be watching the episodes out of order and be spoiled by this? I dunno, but better to be safe than sorry.

squishy wrote:

Spoiler:

D'oh!
Right, the Doctor took her to the future.

Calixar wrote:

squishy wrote:

Spoiler:

D'oh!
Right, the Doctor took her to the future.

But that's way further into her the time line. Mels was a child when she grew up with Amy and Rory, and when they went to the future hospital after Mels had regenerated into River. Saying that, my vortex manipulator explanation was in the future too. So I don't know, perhaps Kovarian leaves her with in Amy and Rory's youth time period and makes her grow up with them, knowing that Amy and Rory would meet the Doctor one day giving Mels the oppurtinty to kill him?

very good episode.