S5E12: The Pandorica Opens (Spoilers)

I don't think he's the voice, but I did keep expecting the Dream Lord to show up though. Especially when River was having a hard time with the TARDIS.

ok, i'll give the shortest review here: WTH
(yes, i wanted to use a different letter, but there are junior members to this board).

if you want a data explanation for my review, it's this: 50 new questions, not a single answer (which is what i'm sure part 2 is for).

as far as people not judging this episode on it's own, yes, we can, this is the post about this episode. for everyone who understood and were entertained by this episode, i'm happy for you. there are also people who understood and were entertained by the tv show friends, i was not one of them.

bret_owen99 wrote:

there are also people who understood and were entertained by the tv show friends, i was not one of them.

lol

I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm hoping that questions will be answered in part 2, but I doubt very seriously that all of them will be answered. I'll be surprised for instance if all of the holes in River's background will be filled. I like the first part of the story despite my reservations and I plan on watching it again, but personally I'm getting tired of every season finale using everything including the kitchen sink. Plus how many times are we going to get these earth is doomed storylines? It's getting to be old hat for me.

Ok. I think not to go off topic but they have changed the catch phrase without telling us. He hasn't said jeronimo the whole series but instead bowties are cool. The only time he said it was in the end of time and the eleventh hour.

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

Honestly, I'm confused at all the confusion I'm seeing. What was so confusing about it? And I'm also perplexed at people calling it disappointing.

scarywood wrote:

These are the times when I actually miss RTD. We need a new writer badly. Perhaps Moffat can just write the odd episode...

And this confounds me even more. I couldn't possibly disagree more strongly. I've not been placed on the edge of my seat by this show like this since, well, since the days of the original series. I did not find it "cheap", nor "thrown together", because the entire season has been building towards this. This episode was indeed epic, as someone else has already said, and I absolutely cannot wait for the finale.

Keep in mind, Moffat didn't write every episode. He's the producer and head writer, but he didn't write them all. This season has, IMHO, been the most consistently good series of the show since it returned in 2005.

Let's see what happens in part 2 before slagging off on this story.

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

well i enjoyed the episode immensely, and i didn't find it confusing at all. it was pretty straight forward. the alliance formed to save the universe from the doctor, thinking that he was the cause, and they used amy's memories to catch him. but the crack in time is still going, which i'm thinking the rani has something to do with.

bret_owen99 wrote:

ok, i'll give the shortest review here: WTH
(yes, i wanted to use a different letter, but there are junior members to this board).

if you want a data explanation for my review, it's this: 50 new questions, not a single answer (which is what i'm sure part 2 is for).

as far as people not judging this episode on it's own, yes, we can, this is the post about this episode. for everyone who understood and were entertained by this episode, i'm happy for you. there are also people who understood and were entertained by the tv show friends, i was not one of them.

My point exactly. The only reason I'm confused is because there are so many things that are yet to be answers. Granted, its a 2 parter, but this topic is about this individual episode.

What I really didn't like was that all of these hostile monsters have been put together. Daleks fought against Cyberman, right? Sontarans are war thirsty, they want war with just about everything that moves, right? Judoon are the Galactic Police of the Shadow Proclamation, so why have they joined an alliance with blooming criminals? And as for the rest of them, they were just put there for the sake of it! Or though I must say that the whole 'Rory is an Auton' thing was a good idea.

I do look forward to the next episode, because maybe we can get answers!

At the end of the day, it all comes down to people's opinions. Lets just leave it at that.

scarywood wrote:

What I really didn't like was that all of these hostile monsters have been put together. Daleks fought against Cyberman, right? Sontarans are war thirsty, they want war with just about everything that moves, right? Judoon are the Galactic Police of the Shadow Proclamation, so why have they joined an alliance with blooming criminals? And as for the rest of them, they were just put there for the sake of it!

I too find it VERY improbable that this disparate group of aliens would ALL work together like this, which makes me suspect that NONE of it is real.

Whether this is all a dream in Amy's head or some kind of alternate reality I don't know, but I don't think Daleks and Cybermen would actually cooperate for ANYTHING, even to destroy The Doctor, in a million years.

No, there's something else going on here, it's not all as obvious as it appears, at least, I really hope it's not.

I think the next episode will reveal whether Moffat is some kind of mad genius or a one-hit wonder.

Clavius wrote:

scarywood wrote:

What I really didn't like was that all of these hostile monsters have been put together. Daleks fought against Cyberman, right? Sontarans are war thirsty, they want war with just about everything that moves, right? Judoon are the Galactic Police of the Shadow Proclamation, so why have they joined an alliance with blooming criminals? And as for the rest of them, they were just put there for the sake of it!

I too find it VERY improbable that this disparate group of aliens would ALL work together like this, which makes me suspect that NONE of it is real.

Whether this is all a dream in Amy's head or some kind of alternate reality I don't know, but I don't think Daleks and Cybermen would actually cooperate for ANYTHING, even to destroy The Doctor, in a million years.

No, there's something else going on here, it's not all as obvious as it appears, at least, I really hope it's not.

I think the next episode will reveal whether Moffat is some kind of mad genius or a one-hit wonder.

Yeah. And another point I would like to add is that Daleks hate everything that is 'impure'. They want to destroy all living beings other than themselves. My point is, why would they suddenly change all of that?

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I think the next episode will reveal whether Moffat is some kind of mad genius or a one-hit wonder.

And I could not agree with this ^^ more.

Since I haven't seen any of these episodes, and from all I read, I just want to put it down what I think:

Young Amy meets The Doctor, this Dream Lord comes in, and makes her see what her future would be like, the crack gets bigger as it's tampering with time, and when it's all over, we start again, not so much of this "fairy tale" arc, slight revamp of the control room/console, and hopefully back to stronger storylines.

Possibly all a dream (and going back to "New Series" Daleks)....

That's all I got.

I was thinking that everything is from Amy's mind somehow. It has to be more than a coincidence that Amy had a book about Romans and they show up in this story. I was also thinking that even though it's improbable that all of the Doctor's enemies are now in an alliance that it wouldn't be as well if this isn't the "real world" to begin with.

So many questions and no answers which is why I'm confused. Plus I can't seem to shake the feeling that something really tragic did happen to Rory before the Amy and the Doctor met up with each other again. Maybe this tragedy could have something to do with what's happening currently?

scarywood wrote:

What I really didn't like was that all of these hostile monsters have been put together. Daleks fought against Cyberman, right? Sontarans are war thirsty, they want war with just about everything that moves, right? Judoon are the Galactic Police of the Shadow Proclamation, so why have they joined an alliance with blooming criminals?

A few things to keep in mind...

* New Paradigm Daleks - what's the point of making a big to-do about them being new and improved if they behave in exactly the same fashion? These new Daleks are supposed to be better, stronger, and SMARTER than the Daleks that preceded them. As such, if they were convinced the threat to the whole universe was so great that they needed help, they'd go make it happen.

* The Sontarans can't fight anyone if the universe snuffs out.

* The Shadow Proclamation, as keepers of intergalactic law, would be remiss in their duties if they didn't act to save the universe in peril.

Its called an "Alliance of Convenience" and its something that we've seen in our own history time and again. The allied powers in WW2 anyone? Do you think the US and Britain liked Stalin and the Soviets? There was a huge push in the wake of WW2 to invade Russia since they had been so weakened by the war against Germany. Fortunately (or not, depending on your views), cooler heads prevailed. So, after WW2 was over, the NATO nations and the nations of the Warsaw Pact would go back to looking at each other as bitter enemies.

That's exactly the scenario that would occur here: You team up, get the job done, and go back to cheerfully blowing one another to smithereens. As such, I have NO problem swallowing the alliance, and I'm shocked it hasn't happened before now.

Now, is it all real? Well, that's the rub now isn't it? We'll find out soon enough. But real or not, I dont find the alliance wholly unrealistic, because history has shown me it has happened again and again, and it will continue to happen, again and again.

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

Very good point actually. Something that I had not thought of.

mysterylad wrote:

Wow, Wes...I guess I cheesed you off. Unfortunately, what cheesed you off wasn't actually what I said, just how you interpreted it. Amusingly enough, I wasn't talking about you...

Nah, what you said cheesed me off. What you did was openly dismiss the opinions of some forum members because they didn't go into great detail concerning their views of the episode -- and whether you were talking about me or not (I didn't necessarily think you were), that just struck me as uncool.

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That's not what I said. I said I don't put much stock in arguments with no logical foundation, meaning that if a person doesn't explain why they feel a certain way, the statement is itself not particularly useful on a message board... My complaint was that many dismissive statements have nothing in them to discuss.

Ah, but not all of us are intending to voice proper arguments, though -- nor are all of us looking to get involved in a prolonged discussion of the merits/failings of a particular episode. Some of us are just sharing quick opinions for the sake of... whatever. Like, apparently a lot of people loved the ep, and that's great for you guys, but I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person who wasn't into it. Even if scarywood and bret had only posted one sentence to that effect, I'd have gotten the same impression and felt the same slight bit of relief/vindication/etc. And that would have been fine from my point of view.

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I'm responding to your points/observations/reactions right now...exactly as I've done on numerous other occasions with numerous other posts. There is absolutely zero basis for the suggestion that I'd not bother reading it, nor bother to respond; in fact, there's ample evidence to the contrary.

Perhaps I was unfair there. It does feel like I've posted lengthier comments in other episode threads, though, yet my comments rarely receive any acknowledgment at all. Maybe I've not seen your prior responses -- or forgotten about them; that's also a possibility -- but that's why I said what I said there.

Of course, you're under no obligation to respond at length to anything I say! But given my perception that my comments are largely ignored, that's another reason I sometimes decide not to go into more detail regarding my views on a particular episode. Why bother, you know?

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In any case, our responses to these episodes aren't going to be perfectly logical or rational -- if that were a reasonable expectation, then we could expect that rational individuals would respond to each episode in the exact same way. Doctor Who episodes are not calculus equations.

That's an argument based on a flawed assumption. The assumption is, "then we could expect that rational individuals would respond to each episode in the exact same way." ... Two perfectly rational people can have totally differing opinions on a subject because of how they weigh certain factors in certain situations...

Well, now we're getting into semantics. I'd argue that the different weighting of certain factors isn't strictly rational or logical, as it often comes down to personal preferences, interpretations, and so forth that don't necessarily fit into a true/false model. You mention differing views among academics, but (in many/most cases) those individuals are debating various points/ideas in order to determine the "truth" of a particular matter. I don't think that's what we're going for in a discussion of a Doctor Who episode.

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By your own admission, though, there is a possibility the alliance's purpose (and each species' role in said alliance) will be made clear in the next episode, and I'm not prepared to dismiss this plot device on the assumption that it won't be explained, or that the explanation will be boring. Now, if they don't explain it, or if that explanation is poorly executed or sloppily-conceived, I will join you in passionately and wholeheartedly damning the whole narrative "twist" at the end of the episode as a cheap and stupid gambit, because that's what it will have proven itself to be

See, I don't feel bad about dismissing the device now -- though if it somehow turns out to be brilliant, I'll gladly revise my previous comments and praise Moff for pulling it off after all. But as it stands, I just don't see how they can give that kind of development the treatment it deserves in a single episode. In Justice League Unlimited and Teen Titans (which you really should watch; while the first few episodes weren't stellar, the show quickly became one of the best "American" cartoons I've ever seen), those alliances were literally the focus of the entire seasons in which they appeared. Even in shows like The Spectacular Spider-Man (which might actually be the best American cartoon I've ever seen) in which the villain alliances include fewer members and are more short-lived, the excitement is there because one can actually see the villains working together to take out the hero. But even Pertwee's Doctor was no Spider-Man, so I can't see a more brief alliance having the same punch as one of those comic-style battle royales.

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...and I'm not nearly as close-minded as you've painted me. I've spent an entire academic career learning to be smarter than that.

I apologize for any perceived or intended insinuation to that effect. As far as the academic career thing goes, feel free to give me any encouragement/advice/etc., as I'd very much like to go to grad school if I can dredge up the necessary motivation and confidence and contacts to submit the bloody applications.

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They've got a plot device (the Pandorica), the purpose of which is to eliminate the Doctor as a threat to the Universe, but they didn't foreshadow the alliance it apparently took to address their problem. The problem was that they couldn't foreshadow it, the reason being...that's not how this show works. The Doctor has to be smarter than everyone around him; he has to be smarter than the audience. If we were to see first-hand evidence of a conspiracy of his greatest foes coalescing around the Doctor without him noticing anything of the sort, it would undermine the character.

Well, I can think of a different way they might've done it. Suppose that, in the fourth episode, the Doctor landed on an alien planet (ha, I know) to find Sontaran and Judoon troopers -- apparently working towards different goals and perhaps unaware of each other's presence on the place. The Doctor soon begins to suspect that they're actually at war with each other... but then, by the end of the episode, determines that they're working together. To what end?

And then the Doctor discovers similar alliances and connections in subsequent episodes, such that -- by the eleventh episode -- he's determined that there is actually a vast alliance spanning various alien factions. And suppose that in that episode, he determines that the reason these unlikely groups have come together is to take joint possession of the Pandorica: the most powerful artifact in the multiverse, and one that will effectively allow each race to create its own perfect parallel universe in which it reigns supreme. (If we've still got the cracks in the mix, suppose the Doctor determines that they originate from the explosion that generates these new universes.)

So in the twelfth episode, the Doctor races to seize the Pandorica first, hoping to destroy it and stop this from occurring. Except when he gets there and it opens... well, we get the same explanation we got here. The difference is that there would have been quite a bit of buildup to it, and my reaction (I can't speak for anyone else!) to such a twist would have been like "ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap" rather than the "meh" with which I responded to the appearance (as opposed to the purpose) of the alliance in this episode.

But you're right that the show doesn't work this way. Throughout the 2005+ series, the writers have preferred to give these little repeated references -- like Bad Wolf and this series' cracks in time -- that generally don't tell one anything about the nature of the final threat, only to explain their significance in a most unsatisfying (at least for me) moment at the very end of the series. I don't see any reason why they couldn't provide more buildup to the big reveals, though, and I'd hoped that Moffat -- being new and all -- could change how the series operates. He hasn't, and that's perhaps what I've found most disappointing about his first outing.

all i have to say(and i know it's not an academic argument), if in part 2, everything this series(the alliance, river song, rory) was just a dream in amy's head, that's not cool.

If it's supposed to be all a dream, then I'll be very disappointed. No one likes those "It was just a dream" ending! A lot of L. Frank Baum fans are still cheezed off at a certain movie because of that...

I'm thinking what might happen is that the Doctor needs to travel back through his own timeline (or Amy's) and start seeding memories in her mind to prevent the universe from being destroyed, or to restore it. And who knows what side effects that might have...

jaredofmo wrote:

If it's supposed to be all a dream, then I'll be very disappointed. No one likes those "It was just a dream" ending! A lot of L. Frank Baum fans are still cheezed off at a certain movie because of that...

Don't forget Dallas when one year was nothing but a dream that Pam was having. Many fans were not pleased with that and I'm pretty sure the show's ratings went downhill after that.

"What's Family Guy?"

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

scarywood wrote:

Very good point actually. Something that I had not thought of.

It is from the quote I said earlier:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

The moment the Doctor is in the box, the battle should begin,

bret_owen99 wrote:

all i have to say(and i know it's not an academic argument), if in part 2, everything this series(the alliance, river song, rory) was just a dream in amy's head, that's not cool.

Oh, that doesn't require any supporting argument at all for me to agree 100%.

If that happens, this season will have been the absolute worst bit of rubbish plotting that's ever stained a Doctor Who season, made all the more tragic in light of how sharp the dialogue has been, how great the acting and cameos have been, and how wonderful Matt Smith has been in the role. All that creative energy and performance power for a frakkin' dream? If that's what it all turns out to have been, oh, mark my words, I will join the torch-wielding mob with all due haste, and I'll be bringing my own pitchfork.

Wes Crayon wrote:

Ah, but not all of us are intending to voice proper arguments, though -- nor are all of us looking to get involved in a prolonged discussion of the merits/failings of a particular episode. Some of us are just sharing quick opinions for the sake of... whatever. Like, apparently a lot of people loved the ep, and that's great for you guys, but I'm glad to know that I'm not the only person who wasn't into it. Even if scarywood and bret had only posted one sentence to that effect, I'd have gotten the same impression and felt the same slight bit of relief/vindication/etc. And that would have been fine from my point of view.

Fair enough, I suppose. Though I'm not sure I understand why someone would limit their online interactions in that way, or just how vindicated one could feel after a simple "Yeah, man!" reply, but to each his own. Some people want to keep it short and sweet. You have to understand, though, that it's hard to take an opinion seriously if there's no meat to it, especially in sci-fi fandom, where every unsupported criticism reads like snark for the sake of snark, even when its not.

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Well, now we're getting into semantics. I'd argue that the different weighting of certain factors isn't strictly rational or logical, as it often comes down to personal preferences, interpretations, and so forth that don't necessarily fit into a true/false model. You mention differing views among academics, but (in many/most cases) those individuals are debating various points/ideas in order to determine the "truth" of a particular matter. I don't think that's what we're going for in a discussion of a Doctor Who episode.

Ah, but isn't it? What's about fans dissecting a Doctor Who episode is any different from academics dissecting the subtext of Huckleberry Finn? Science fiction has a long tradition of being an excellent vehicle for exploring themes greater than those that appear on the surface, and in digging for those themes (whether the writers put them there deliberately or subconsciously), the act of analysis becomes a mirror in which the viewer examines himself...just as analyzing literature becomes a lens though which we can study the human condition in a specific place and time. (In an entirely unrelated note, be cautious when assuming logic and rationality have to be limited to true/false statements; that's a reductionist approach that works in many contexts, but can lead to the utter failure to recognize emergent properties in a larger context...but like I said, that's another discussion entirely. )

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I apologize for any perceived or intended insinuation to that effect. As far as the academic career thing goes, feel free to give me any encouragement/advice/etc., as I'd very much like to go to grad school if I can dredge up the necessary motivation and confidence and contacts to submit the bloody applications.

No harm, no foul. What field are you in?

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But you're right that the show doesn't work this way. Throughout the 2005+ series, the writers have preferred to give these little repeated references -- like Bad Wolf and this series' cracks in time -- that generally don't tell one anything about the nature of the final threat, only to explain their significance in a most unsatisfying (at least for me) moment at the very end of the series. I don't see any reason why they couldn't provide more buildup to the big reveals, though, and I'd hoped that Moffat -- being new and all -- could change how the series operates. He hasn't, and that's perhaps what I've found most disappointing about his first outing.

That too is a fair assessment. The problem here, though, is that if Moff had completely changed the way things are done, he'd have caught no end of heck for it. There's no winning with fandom: they'll cry for the New, but bemoan the loss of the Old; they'll condemn the recycling of the Old, but hate the unfamiliarity of the New. I do not envy the man his current role. I think what he's done here is try to walk a line between reinventing the show while pleasing the modern audience at the same time; whether or not he's succeeded, well, I guess we'll find out next Saturday! (I like your idea for setting up the alliance, by the way; that it just wouldn't work in the current series paradigm is a pity, because Justice League Unlimited was so frakkin' good that it actually ruined modern comics for me...they just weren't as good as what was being done on that show, and I was no longer willing to settle for less!)

mysterylad wrote:

The problem here, though, is that if Moff had completely changed the way things are done, he'd have caught no end of heck for it. There's no winning with fandom: they'll cry for the New, but bemoan the loss of the Old; they'll condemn the recycling of the Old, but hate the unfamiliarity of the New. I do not envy the man his current role. I think what he's done here is try to walk a line between reinventing the show while pleasing the modern audience at the same time; whether or not he's succeeded, well, I guess we'll find out next Saturday!

Dear lord, I so agree. I have a love/hate relationship with fandoms because of this stuff. The griping, the emo cries of "You've raped my childhood!", the endless nitpicking, the people who say "Such and such change/artist/writer/director will ruin -insert property name here- forever!", and so on.

It drives me batty sometimes. All the vitriol and surly attitudes. Fortunately some places are far better than others. I'm posting on one now!

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

Dear lord, I so agree. I have a love/hate relationship with fandoms because of this stuff. The griping, the emo cries of "You've raped my childhood!", the endless nitpicking, the people who say "Such and such change/artist/writer/director will ruin -insert property name here- forever!", and so on. It drives me batty sometimes.

Oh, I know! If I hear one more fanboy whine about George Lucas ruining Star Wars, or JJ Abrams ruining Star Trek, I'm going to scream. These stories aren't nearly as timeless as we fans like to pretend they are; they get dated, just like everything else. And yet, their themes and concepts are timeless, and thus the properties are worth reinventing for each new generation, and that's what's been done in the case of Star Wars and Star Trek, neither of which were all that relevant anymore outside the ever-aging fanbase they'd had for years.

My kids love the Star Wars prequels...I don't, but why should I care? My kids got to form the same kind of bond with that universe I did when I was their age, which they couldn't do with the older films (I tried, believe me), and I should be happy about that...not upset that it isn't "my" Star Wars anymore. If I'd begrudged my kids their childhood joys just so I didn't feel like mine was being "disrespected," well...psychologists have words for that kind of thing, and none of them are flattering.

Indeed. I'm not a big fan of the prequels, but they didn't ruin anything because the originals still exist. And besides, it gave us the awesome Jedi fights we didn't really get in episodes 4-6, and Qui Gon Jinn is my favorite Jedi, so there ya go.

Oh, and without the prequels, we'd have never gotten Weird Al's "The Saga Begins". So I don't know about you, but that makes it all worth it lol

Same with Trek. I love the original Trek, but I also loved the new Trek film. I have room in my fanboy heart for both. These things aren't mutually exclusive, and I don't have to hate one just because I love the other.

These stories are modern myths. People whine when properties get retconned or re-told. Superman gets his backstory tweaked a little and people whine, but how many times have the old Greek myths and Norse Eddas been told and re-told and re-imagined?

If a story is good at its core, it'll weather different interpretations. Its a simple as that.

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

These stories are modern myths. People whine when properties get retconned or re-told. Superman gets his backstory tweaked a little and people whine, but how many times have the old Greek myths and Norse Eddas been told and re-told and re-imagined? If a story is good at its core, it'll weather different interpretations. Its a simple as that.

Absolutely! I think anyone with a taste for heroic/mythic fiction should have to read Joseph Campbell, if for no other reason than to teach them that stories of gods and heroes are fluid and ever-changing, and that's how it's supposed to be.

mysterylad wrote:

Fair enough, I suppose. Though I'm not sure I understand why someone would limit their online interactions in that way, or just how vindicated one could feel after a simple "Yeah, man!" reply, but to each his own. Some people want to keep it short and sweet. You have to understand, though, that it's hard to take an opinion seriously if there's no meat to it...

I don't see why you'd have trouble taking such an opinion seriously! If bret just up and said "WTH" (for example) without further comment, I wouldn't feel inclined to doubt his reaction of the episode in the least (even if I were curious to know more about what he didn't like). Nor would I feel inclined to be harshly dismissive of his view if I happened to enjoy the episode, or say that some people just like complaining. Granted, some people do just like complaining, but that doesn't mean that the reasons behind their complaints (whether they share them or not) are invalid. Rather than being openly dismissive of said complaints, I'd just ignore them.

(I think at times I've been playfully dismissive of bret's gripes, but I hope he -- and everyone else -- gets that I'm just joking. That's why I use smilies! )

[quote]You mention differing views among academics, but (in many/most cases) those individuals are debating various points/ideas in order to determine the "truth" of a particular matter. I don't think that's what we're going for in a discussion of a Doctor Who episode.

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Ah, but isn't it? What's about fans dissecting a Doctor Who episode is any different from academics dissecting the subtext of Huckleberry Finn? ...

Well, I should clarify -- that's not what I'm going for... particularly when we're talking about an episode I didn't enjoy! I don't especially want to "dissect" something I found unsatisfying (though I do enjoy bashing RTD episodes in snarky fashion); I mostly just want to know that I wasn't the only one who didn't enjoy them. Not that I'd suddenly change my opinion if I were alone in my dislike for a particular episode, but YANA moments are always nice.

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In an entirely unrelated note, be cautious when assuming logic and rationality have to be limited to true/false statements; that's a reductionist approach that works in many contexts, but can lead to the utter failure to recognize emergent properties in a larger context...

Semantics! I wouldn't necessarily argue that "rationality" is confined to a true/false model, but I generally apply the term "logic" in that strict fashion (and thus how I'd use "logic/rationality"). Which is why I wouldn't expect perfect "logic" (or even perfect "rationality," for that matter) out of a Doctor Who episode discussion.

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No harm, no foul. What field are you in?

My undergrad degree is in philosophy, but I'm hoping to enter a creative writing program. I came to a point long ago at which I felt that, at the end of the day, philosophical debate was largely pointless.

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That too is a fair assessment. The problem here, though, is that if Moff had completely changed the way things are done, he'd have caught no end of heck for it.

See, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Sure, fandoms can find just about anything to gripe about, but it's not as if these useless, repetitive "clues" week after week are an integral part of Doctor Who! If Moff had gone about building to the finale in what I'd argue would have been a more robust and compelling way, I doubt there would have been much complaining (unless it was executed poorly).

In any case, I don't think that wishing to avoid fandom gripes is a sufficient reason to stick to an inferior method of storytelling. I'm sure some prehistoric folks would have bemoaned the loss of the square wheel following the introduction of circular wheels, but that doesn't mean that those people should have been allowed to stifle innovation and improvements!

And this isn't at all the same thing as fandom complaints about the Star Wars prequels, as the most vocal complaints about those have little to do with those films' poor storytelling.

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I think what he's done here is try to walk a line between reinventing the show while pleasing the modern audience at the same time; whether or not he's succeeded, well, I guess we'll find out next Saturday!

Do you? I don't feel like he's reinvented anything -- even Smith's Doctor comes across as a Tennant impression to me. And I certainly haven't been pleased with this season... which is also in keeping with the status quo, as I haven't been a great fan of the 2005+ series in general). I do think that, on the whole, there have been less outright awful moments in this season than in an RTD season... but then, I kinda miss those moments. Whereas bashing RTD was at least enjoyable for me, I haven't even gotten that much pleasure from this run.

So whether Saturday's episode is awesome or not, I'll still have found this season to be unsatisfying on the whole. Even the one episode I thought was truly fantastic -- The Time of Angels -- was kinda ruined by having a crap resolution in Flesh and Stone.

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I like your idea for setting up the alliance, by the way; that it just wouldn't work in the current series paradigm is a pity, because Justice League Unlimited was so frakkin' good that it actually ruined modern comics for me...they just weren't as good as what was being done on that show, and I was no longer willing to settle for less!)

But why wouldn't it work? I don't understand why you're so confident about that! That kind of thing has certainly worked in classic Doctor Who serials/seasons -- to say nothing of other shows, science fiction and otherwise (and animated). All it would take would be for the writers and showrunner(s) to come up with a grand vision, get on the same page, and make it happen. It's certainly easier said than done, but I hardly think it's impossible or even unrealistic.