S5E12: The Pandorica Opens (Spoilers)

Continuity was never very consistent on the classic series, but the producers of the modern series should know that modern audiences expect the continuity to hold up. I'm willing to forgive the occasional continuity error on the basis that this is a time-travel series, but that only goes so far.

Where do the Cybermen come from? There are a couple of possibilities. Perhaps when the Cybermen first arrived in this universe, they dispatched scouts to other planets, where they were somehow able to escape the effect that pulled their brethren into the void and have since built up their numbers. These could also be the "classic" line of Cybermen, and we are supposed to assume that the current look is simply the "natural" evolution of the design, and probably exists in a number of realities.

I was really hoping we'd someday get a story in which the Cybus Cybermen discovered their counterparts in this universe, but that seems unlikely now.

Personally, I find the whole "what's the deal with the Cybermen in The Pandorica Opens" issue to be a heck of a lot less bothersome than the insinuation by River Song that the TARDIS wheezes because the Doctor "drives with the brakes on", which elicited a hearty eye-roll and a "whatever", because, frankly, it was asinine.

Far be it from me to tell people how they should enjoy the show, but at times I wonder why people keep watching things about which they seem to get so little enjoyment from. Its almost like a form of masochism or self-flagellation.

Anyway, a lot of this little nitpicky stuff: I notice it, but tend to shrug my shoulders and forge on ahead. Since I have no plans to pen "The Nitpickers Guide to NuWHO", I won't let little things like that ruin my enjoyment of a ripping good yarn.

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

Watched this again today. I missed it last time, but I noticed River say that the Doctor taught her how to fly the TARDIS, whereas in Time of Angels she insinuated that the Doctor didn't teach her, someone else did.

Continuity error or intentional?

I don't think it's actually a contradiction-- Pandorica's earlier in her timeline, and she "left the brakes on" in the episode, so I'm presuming she had more lessons later from someone with more experience.

Yeah, I could see that. I actually didn't even notice the fact that she was flying it with the break on. Nice catch!

Or maybe she was just teasing him in "Time Of Angels," picking up quickly that he hadn't seen their first meeting yet.

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

Personally, I find the...issue to be a heck of a lot less bothersome than the insinuation by River Song that the TARDIS wheezes because the Doctor "drives with the brakes on"...

Really? I thought it was funny, personally, but I get a real laugh out of how "married" their (the Doctor's and River's) dialogue sounds.

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Far be it from me to tell people how they should enjoy the show, but at times I wonder why people keep watching things about which they seem to get so little enjoyment from. Its almost like a form of masochism or self-flagellation.

A good-sized chunk of fandom makes me ponder that exact point with consistent regularity.

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Anyway, a lot of this little nitpicky stuff: I notice it, but tend to shrug my shoulders and forge on ahead...I won't let little things like that ruin my enjoyment of a ripping good yarn.

Agreed. I like the story to have an internal logic, and I like a coherent continuity, but there comes a time when continuity becomes too heavy: likening the show to a ballon, you've got to dump some of that continuity "ballast" to really soar. With Doctor Who, you've got a show that has long outlived its creators' initial vision, and has continued to outlive their successors' visions, and is still running after a ridiculous length of time. Since nothing was ever planned more than a series or two in advance, and what aired was sometimes contradictory to stuff that had been aired earlier (ahem...Dalek history, anyone?), the new series faces a huge challenge in the labyrinthine mess of conflicting continuity with which it has to deal. There just won't always be a way to tidy things up entirely. If they keep from making any huge errors in "current" continuity (i.e., the vital plot threads continue to make sense and have meaning within the contemporary context of the narrative), I don't sweat the small stuff. Heck, I don't even much mind the Eighth Doctor's much-debated "half human" line. I'm guessing it was in there just to give the prospective American series a fresh twist--a way to facilitate audience identification (which American TV audiences seem to require) while explaining the Doctor's interest in Earth and his inability to fully fit-in with Time Lord society. From a writer's perspective, it was a good idea at the time. The only reason we see it as a continuity gaffe now is because the 2005 relaunch ignored it (due to negative fan reaction, I'd imagine). So I rank this one alongside Leia kissing Luke in The Empire Strikes Back: the writers didn't know then what they would settle on doing later.

I definitely want to know how these Cybermen came to be, but I'm willing to wait to see how the writers deal with that dangling plot-thread. "The Big Bang" has much bigger narrative questions to answer first!

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

Far be it from me to tell people how they should enjoy the show, but at times I wonder why people keep watching things about which they seem to get so little enjoyment from. Its almost like a form of masochism or self-flagellation.

wow, it's almost like i'm a fan or something(which is short for fanatic, as the ninth doctor pointed out). just because i don't like a particual episode, or season, doesn't mean i don't enjoy the show, or actors in the show. i have shown over the course of this series that i am open minded to all the shows, and have actually given a few good reviews(vincent and the doctor, the lodger, votd).

just because i wasn't a fan of the colin baker years, doesn't mean i don't watch his stories. it's still doctor who. that would be like saying someone who is a star trek fan shouldn't watch the next generation movies because they were sub-par to the original series movies.

it's not a form of self punishment, it's making sure i don't miss any good episodes. if i had given up early on this series, i never would have watched vincent and the doctor, which i consider to be one of the greatest shows of all time. i also would have missed votd, the lodger, etc. sometimes you have to sit through the shows you don't enjoy, to really appreciate the ones you do. while i'm glad you considered this a "good ripping yarn(?)", i did not. i'm not going to write a 50,000 word term paper on why i don't think it was a good story, i'm just going to say that is my opinion.

I enjoyed this one. I liked the alliance, and though the Pandorica being a prison prepared for the Doctor occured ot me about halfway through, I still thought it was pretty cool when they led him inside. The dissambled Cyberman (though indeed, my first thought was where did he come from, and why didn't the Doctor wonder where he came from)attacking was great - particularly when it dumped the old skull and started snapping at Amy.

Thoughts on who the voice is? I was not particularly thrilled with The Dream Lord being a dark side of the Doctor somehow made manifest, but it would make sense for him to return at this point, I guess.

When the ships are shown gathering over Stonehenge, in the upper left hand corner, is that a Racnoss ship?

bret_owen99 wrote:

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

Far be it from me to tell people how they should enjoy the show, but at times I wonder why people keep watching things about which they seem to get so little enjoyment from. Its almost like a form of masochism or self-flagellation.

wow, it's almost like i'm a fan or something(which is short for fanatic, as the ninth doctor pointed out).

it's not a form of self punishment, it's making sure i don't miss any good episodes.

That's great, but I wasn't talking about you. I've seen you give good reviews for episodes before.

The point is that most fandoms have a contingent of people who never seem to be satisfied, no matter WHAT is done, and the sum of their expression about a particular fandom seems to be naught but complaining. I have seen examples of this in every single fandom I've ever been a part of, and on most of the forums I've ever posted on.

These people are welcome to do that if they wish, but I'm going to consider it 1) A waste of time to continue to engage in a behavior pattern that seems to bring nothing but distress, and 2) A nuisance when this type of fan complains bitterly to the exclusion of any real praise, in pretty much every case. After a while, I tune them out, and just don't pay much heed to their posts.

Furthermore, you're welcome to be as long-winded or as succinct as you wish in your praise or damnation of fiction. Everyone is. However, when people are too succinct (It just sucked), one should not be shocked when others ask them for clarification.

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

I finally stopped crying but wow... seriously...

I was first geeking out... then I was going, "Noo no nono no... not the Daleks being ultimate evil again!"

Then the alliance I was first, "HEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" then I was like, "AHHHHHHHH Nooooo!"

And Matt Smith just won my heart with that pleading.

I want to give the Supreme Dalek a hug. A big big hug.

~

Okay, I just finally finished watching this episode and oh my God. That was a great episode. The opening was the best one so far this entire series, and the entire episode had you guessing about what was going to happen.

It had some great moments, some creepy moments, and everything in between. and the ending....wow. Talk about plot twist. Matt Smith really did a great job throughout this episode, especially at the end.

artanyus wrote:

Matt Smith really did a great job throughout this episode, especially at the end.

He has shown a tremendous range with his Doctor in a very short time. I've said it elsewhere, I'll say it here as well: I don't think any Doctor has been as fully-realized as quickly as Smith's. Even if he isn't one's cup of tea, one has to give the man credit for that.

mysterylad wrote:

artanyus wrote:

Matt Smith really did a great job throughout this episode, especially at the end.

He has shown a tremendous range with his Doctor in a very short time. I've said it elsewhere, I'll say it here as well: I don't think any Doctor has been as fully-realized as quickly as Smith's. Even if he isn't one's cup of tea, one has to give the man credit for that.

I agree that he has shown tremendous range, and I have given him credit throughout the various episodes where I felt he did a great job and everything. This series just hasn't really endeared itself to me much (with a few exceptions) but these last two episodes were sort of a deal breaker on whether I would like him or not. I did state in the big bang thread that accept him as the Doctor, just not my Doctor.

artanyus wrote:

I agree that he has shown tremendous range, and I have given him credit throughout the various episodes where I felt he did a great job and everything. This series just hasn't really endeared itself to me much (with a few exceptions) but these last two episodes were sort of a deal breaker on whether I would like him or not. I did state in the big bang thread that accept him as the Doctor, just not my Doctor.

It's a testament to his grasp of the role that many people who haven't enjoyed the season all that much still enjoyed Smith. For an actor, that has to be a tremendous feeling.

Funny, I just watched this episode here in the US on BBCA nearly a month after the UK (and the rest of you who posted about this episode then). I thought it was a good episode, but I am kicking myself for having looked at the McKinstry concept art floating around prior that gave away the big moment at the end. I tried to avoid the spoilers!

Some minor questions however, some asked earlier in this thread by others:
-where did the Cybus Cybermen come from in this dimension and since when do the cyborg parts work without the human content? I am wondering if the 2nd adventure PC game fills in some holes?
-since when did Autons progress from Mickey-eating trashcans and store dummies to what we saw?
-if the Pandorica was from Amy's mind and that book, then how had the Doctor heard of it previously as a fairy tale?
-I don't know why exactly, but I had a hard time not looking at Legion of Doom as a cost saving exercise to re-use costumes. Were the Silurians awakened? The Doctor never met the Weevils, they are a Torchwood beastie. The Hoix was the Wonder Dog of these Super Pals.
-How and when did said bad guys get to Amy to read her thoughts?
-Daleks build a reality bomb one season, threaten to bomb Earth this season and now want to save reality? Bi-polar Daleks?
-the Tardis has a telepathic link to the Doctor but re-routed phone calls to River instead of just letting him know there was a message? Has the galactic cell from prior seasons run out of minutes?

I agree with Bret who posted earlier that the show does need to try and be mindful of the more recent continuity it has established. It does not have to be a burder to the writers; you cannot ignore your history. Soap opera writers can manage it.

Smith was again great, as others have pointed out. Looking forward to the finale.

http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html
I liked how the mystery big bad used the threat of the crack set up the coalition to set up the Doctor, which I'm guessing will also create the crack.
I'm presuming these are Mondas Cybermen since they have spaceships of their own. The Bryan Hitch redesign is too cool not to use. Since the original Cyberman changed numerous times as the wardrobe budget allowed, I don't have a problem with them using the upgraded design. Chalk it up to altverse coincidence. Maybe the Mondas Cybies got the inspiration from footage/remains of the altverse Cybies that attacked Canary Wharf?
The Daleks want to exterminate everyone but they don't want to be erased from time by the crack themselves. If that happens, they'll have never existed to exterminate anything. Besides Daleks have a LONG history of not exterminating everything immediately when the plot necessitates it. Otherwise they could've just shot the Doctor with their death rays 14 times in a row when they first met him and saved themselves heaps of bother.
Members of the coalition created the Pandorica and the Roman Autons by copying the psychic imprint from Amy's house. Then they sent them back in time and seeded some rumors about it ala Bad Wolf. It looked like Judoon exhaust stamps on her lawn. The Daleks or Silurians would've known she was his companion. They might've picked her over his other companions since there's something cosmically funky about her house.
The one thing that really bothered me was that all the aliens that showed up had already faced the Doctor even though it was circa 1 BC. It detracts from the uniqueness of the TARDIS if all his foes have time travel capabilities.

ok, two points. i think the skull inside the cybermen head really bothered me. some of you found that scary(i found it cheesey), but i thought that cybermen were just the brain put into the machine. isn't that what they showed the animation of in the age of steel? anyways, if they are different cybermen, i guess it's ok, but i didn't like the rebuilding cyberman. once you take one out, it should be gone. it's not the borg, or the T-1000.

second. what if the big bad arranged the second big bad so he could exist? maybe he didn't have a firm hold in our reality, so he created the alliance, the tardis explosion, all to force the doctor and amy to restart the universe, using amy's memmories. therefore, if he was in amy's memmories, he would have a better chance at being reborn in the new universe.

Doctor WhoDat wrote:

-where did the Cybus Cybermen come from in this dimension and since when do the cyborg parts work without the human content? I am wondering if the 2nd adventure PC game fills in some holes?

I dunno about the PC adventure game, but ever since "The Next Doctor", the Cybus Cybermen have been transforming into something akin to Mondas Cybers. I figure, if a group of them can escape the void into the 19th century, then others could escape to different time periods/planets and build from there.

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-since when did Autons progress from Mickey-eating trashcans and store dummies to what we saw?

Presumably, access to the Alliance has given the Consciousnesses access to more advanced materials.

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-if the Pandorica was from Amy's mind and that book, then how had the Doctor heard of it previously as a fairy tale?

Wibbley Wobbley, Timey Whimey. They built the Pandorica then set a trap through space and time to lure the Doctor in.

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-How and when did said bad guys get to Amy to read her thoughts?

Presumably, that came from whoever is behind the Alliance.

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-Daleks build a reality bomb one season, threaten to bomb Earth this season and now want to save reality? Bi-polar Daleks?

These Progenitor Daleks had nothing to do with Davros' plan last season. Further, the Daleks wanted to preserve their existence as much as anyone, hence why they likely joined up with the Alliance.

Though it is interesting that the Daleks are there at all. Makes me look forward to more stories involving the new Progenitors, because they seem like a more dynamic race of Dalek.

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-the Tardis has a telepathic link to the Doctor but re-routed phone calls to River instead of just letting him know there was a message? Has the galactic cell from prior seasons run out of minutes?

It strikes me that the galactic cell he got from Martha was incorporated into the console when the TARDIS "regenerated".

bret_owen99 wrote:

ok, two points. i think the skull inside the
cybermen head really bothered me. some of you found that scary(i found
it cheesey), but i thought that cybermen were just the brain put into
the machine. isn't that what they showed the animation of in the age of
steel? anyways, if they are different cybermen, i guess it's ok, but i
didn't like the rebuilding cyberman. once you take one out, it should
be gone. it's not the borg, or the T-1000.

The whole "Human Head in a Tin Can" bit isn't as far fetched for even a Cybus Cyberman. Torchwood's "Cyberwoman" revealed that the Cybermen were beginning to covert whole Human bodies without removing the brain to save time in their war with the Daleks.

Though the automated Cybersuit was a bit strange, I agree. Still, "Age of Steel" gave us a fully automated Cybersuit. This could be an extrapolation on that concept.

When the center of the Cyber head lit up, I thought River was cutting it in half with her torch from behind. Seeing the skull inside was great, but it should've stopped working once it fell out. It could've been an Auton disguised to look like a Cyberman left as a distraction (the real Cybermen had better things to do than hang about). So it was easier to damgae but each of its parts could work by independent signal from the Nestene consciousness.

I didn't think of that, at all. Depending on the compounds used in a Cybersuit, it could have been the Nestene controlling it.

That would make a lot of sense, really. Especially in light of the Roman Soldiers reveal.

The Nestene angle is a creative explanation, but I would bet Moffat was trying to make the Cybers seem more threatening with new items like the dart, the piece by piece mobility (very Terminator). It always seemed the scary part of the Cybermen was the thought of humans eliminating imperfections by becoming more mechanical. If the Cybers are fully functional without the human element, it would really make them androids and not cyborgs.

In recent years, while I like the new redesign, there seems to be something missing with the Cybermen. The CyberKing ep to me was not a favorite, felt like RTD 'jumped the shark' there (yes, I know it is sci-fi, but really, a wood and steel Transformer?)

Seperatly, I echo with the earlier post question: how did the elements of the alliance all time travel to that era at Stonehenge?

dear god this one was good!

bret_owen99 wrote:

...cyberman...it's not the borg...

Speaking of the Borg, maybe I missed someone's post, but as far as I can tell, no one has commented upon the "threat" the beheaded Cyber-helmet made, "You will be assimilated!"

You think Moffat threw that in there just to rile the more zealous fans?

Sincerely,

Bill

No...that actually was a Borg tricked out like a Cyberman. Remember...all the universes were threatened by the cracks... of course, the representative from the ST universe had to wear the Cybergarb for legal reasons. That's why Vader looks like a Sycorax and Darkseid is in the Hoix getup.

Actually, I took the line from the Cyberman, "All universes will be deleted" to mean that these Cybus-looking Cybermen were from the Cybus universe. So it didn't bug me that they didn't look like "proper" Cybermen.

Yes, that universe was sealed off forever for keeps this time, but...cracks and all...

Speaking of "other (TV) universes," anyone think the music that kicks in right after Rory shoots Amy was spirited from an episode of "Lost"? Look at the torches around the Daleks and see if it doesn't seem like the beach camp and some bad stuff is about to go down. I had to look twice to be sure it wasn't Locke in that Sontaran battle armor!