S8E4: Listen (SPOILERS)

Did anyone else catch that Danny and Clara's date had been delayed by Danny's "family stuff" yet he is clearly in an orphanage as a child? There has to be something to that, right?

All in all, a solid episode. Capaldi is as brilliant as I thought he'd be. He is at once a genius and completely clueless and pulls it off marvelously (did he really turn Danny into a soldier and killer on a lark?) I like the ambiguous ending, even though there was clearly something under the bedspread. The callback to the War Doctor was poetic and more moving than I thought it would be. Clara continues to grow into a great character; her banter with The Doctor is just stellar. 

As for Scary's first post in this thread, what was the controversial scene? Nothing stood out to me.

so who had that dream, anyone, I liked the show, Is it me, I think the new Dr. is a mix between the 3rd and 4th Dr., I'm beginning to like Peter more and more

I believe Scary's controversial scene is probably the Doctor as a child.

I thought this was one of SM's best scripts. Fantastic.

Its the Clara Show Starring Jenna Coleman with Special Guest Star Peter Capaldi and Musical Guest U2 if Apple doesnt have them booked

I liked the Robin Hood Episode much better, i liked the comedy relief and it needed one badly lol.

This episode did make you think and makes you dizzy at the same time

rmlextreme wrote:

Its the Clara Show Starring Jenna Coleman with Special Guest Star Peter Capaldi and Musical Guest U2 if Apple doesnt have them booked

You actually have a point. The Doctor has a question and he basically has Clara investigate it for him, aside from when the airlock opens. Basically, he only steps in when he thinks she might be in danger.

Moff, are you making Capaldi a colder, darker Doctor?

jaredofmo wrote:

Moff, are you making Capaldi a colder, darker Doctor?

I hope so!

TinDogRory wrote:

Scary wrote:

TinDogRory wrote:

"Focus on the creatures we have no clue about." If such things actually exist. ;-) (I'm not convinced there are.)

So the thing under the cover and the slamming door and 'LISTEN' written on the chalk board was all a collective hallucination or...?

"Did we just save him from the kid down the hall?:
"Possibly."

I like the idea that this is an episode about fighting a monster that really isn't there, a creature from the Id, the irrational part of your brain. Sure, there are teases there's something to it all... but who's the monster under the bed? It's Clara.

That doesn't explain who wrote 'LISTEN' on the chalk board and then dropped the chalk though? And it seems odd to me that it was just a kid under the bed sheet. I think there was something. Either way, I'm not really a fan of this ambiguity. It would have been nice to have had some idea of what's going on.

Think I'm gonna watch it again and see if a second viewing helps me get the gist a bit more.

fatsal wrote:

As for Scary's first post in this thread, what was the controversial scene? Nothing stood out to me.

I spoke to my friend who said about that and he said that amongst those who had scene the leaked version had been complaining that Clara going back and meeting the Doctor as a child and stuff was tampering with his timeline too much. He also thought I'd hate the idea of it all since I originally was not pleased at the idea of there being a mysterious secret incarnation of the Doctor in between 8 and 9 (though I love it now).

But actually I really enjoyed the barn scene and seeing the Doctor as a kid - technically we saw the 1st Doctor in this episode. That's awesome! Maybe being bullied as a child into being a soldier is what made the 1st Doctor so grumpy in his later life? Maybe it's part of what made him eventually run away?

Moffat mentioned that once you pass your natural regeneration cycle things start to go "wrong." I reckon that the Doctor wrote "listen" to himself & instantly forgot just like he forgot the clockwork droids. He went off on a snark hunt with no provocation. Clara has been referred to as his "carer" twice. These are hints that the Doctor is going senile.

Well on second viewing, I think I get it now. All of the things that seemed creepy or sinister could be explained away by completely normal things, like the sound of the banging on the door could have just been the pipes, the unlocking of the door could have just been a fault in the mechanics, what we see as ghostly figures are just shadows, etc. And 'LISTEN' on the chalkboard, Clara said "It looks like your handwriting" and he replies "Well I couldn't have written it and forgot" to which she says "Have you met you?" So I guess it could have been him. It kinda seems as though they're suggesting the Doctor's going a bit loopy in this episode, but I think he's just seeing things that aren't there - 'matrixing' as some call it - we all do it, especially as kids.

I think that's probably what this story is getting at. To quote the 8th Doctor, "I love humans. Always seeing patterns in things that aren't there." And as Clara said at the end, it's probably just us being scared of the dark. This story very much plays on the idea of "Is it a sinister monster or is it just [insert rational explanation here]?" Now that I understand that, I enjoyed it a lot more!

There is still one thing though. Although the thing under the bed sheet could just have been one of the kids playing a nasty prank, look at this:



That doesn't even look human. I'm finding it kinda hard to believe it was just a kid. But I guess that's the point; we're supposed to be left to wonder in order to make it creepier.

Aside from that, I mentioned in my other post about wondering why on earth we needed to get involved with the end of the universe and such. I think the purpose of going there, where it's silent and never-ending dead darkness, was to represent what loneliness feels like. At a young age that's what it can feel like in a dark, silent room on your own. Feels like there's no one else out there and it feels incredibly lonely, which then only logically makes you start to question if you're in danger and if you're actually alone at all, as the Doctor did at the beginning of the episode. I think this was probably to show that when you're in a lonely and dark setting your mind can run away with you as it's unsure if you're in danger and is trying to identify threats that aren't there. We probably see that as a problem that needs to be overcome but actually it's probably what makes humans such good survivors.

The soldier thing... Danny certainly seems to be an analogy of the Doctor. As a kid, Danny saw it as brave to grow up and be a soldier and saw the toy soldier that had no gun as 'broken', whereas as a child the Doctor didn't want to be a soldier and distanced himself from 'the other boys' who were training to be soldiers. And then as adults, Danny seems to resent being a soldier whereas the Doctor actually becomes one. In the end, however, both want to do the right thing and both (seemingly) have guilt. I'm not really sure what their point is with this but it's worth noting the parallels between them. They're obviously trying to get at something, or is it just me missing the point?

Perhaps it was just trying to stress to kids that they don't need to be strong and powerful to be brave and fight the good fight, and they can use their fear to their advantage, too, like the Doctor and Danny. This story is certainly a tough cookie and it's definitely trying to convey some messages, it's just harder than the average episode to decipher what those messages are. Now that I think I'm sort of on the right track, I like the idea of it all more, and on my second viewing I definitely enjoyed it more than the first.

Also, just a couple of random things I noticed: there was a hilarious scene that completely flew over my head the first time where kid Danny asks for a story to be read and the Doctor goes "Once upon a time..." touches his head and puts him unconscious and then says "Dad skills." And is it just me or does the 12th always seem to say "Question: [insert question]" when he has an idea or a point to make? It's interesting watching him form his new idiolect so prominently so early on.

Oh yeah, and what's Moffat's obsession with showing us all the main characters as kids? We've now seen Amy, Rory, River, Danny, Clara and even the Doctor as children. It's getting weird!

But yes, after the second viewing, I definitely enjoyed this story more than before. Think I'd change my vote to 'Good' after all and my score to 7.5/10.

Clara does say the Listen on the chalk board is written in the Doctor's own handwriting.

I would also suggest going back and watching the bedsheet scene again. The first time I was certain the top of the figure we see was a "Little Grey Alien," but going back it's way more blurry and furtive than I had first thought.

"Possibly. Probably. Maybe." The vagueness of the plot is supposed to net you zero result. There isn't supposed to be an answer to the solution. It's really daring and it's paying off.

Heh. As I posted that, Scary goes and does exactly what I said!

TinDogRory wrote:

Heh. As I posted that, Scary goes and does exactly what I said!

TinDogRory: Then you will never post with me again because that is the deal. Watch it again. Now. DO AS YOU ARE TOLD!!!

Scary: [runs off to laptop] You're an idiot!

rmlextreme wrote:

Its the Clara Show Starring Jenna Coleman with Special Guest Star Peter Capaldi and Musical Guest U2 if Apple doesnt have them booked

Bingo!! This is the BIGGEST problem I am having (and have had since the Amy show) with the series for years. It seems that Clara even has more airtime than the Doctor himself. Not even surprised that the AI rating from the UK isn't at the 84 range but lower for each episode.

For further info on the Doctor's TARDIS and the barriers, read Engines of War, the "Other" Doctor story... his seems to have little problem getting through.

fatsal wrote:

Did anyone else catch that Danny and Clara's date had been delayed by Danny's "family stuff" yet he is clearly in an orphanage as a child? There has to be something to that, right?

I thought that was Clara's excuse for delaying with Danny, not the other way around.

In reference to complaints about Clara, Moffat has recently said, "Clara is the main character in Series 8."

I really don't like that. However, I don't think she's stolen much limelight in the episodes so far, so if the rest of the series is like this then I'm fine. I know some others are probably not going to enjoy this series though if this is the case...

Get Moffat the heck out of the show. Please.

jonwes wrote:

fatsal wrote:

Did anyone else catch that Danny and Clara's date had been delayed by Danny's "family stuff" yet he is clearly in an orphanage as a child? There has to be something to that, right?

I thought that was Clara's excuse for delaying with Danny, not the other way around.

Just checked and it was definitely Danny (it's about 3 mins in). My assumption is that it was just a facade on his part - everyone does it when they want to get out of something: "Want to meet up on Friday?" "Ah sorry, I can't, got family stuff going on" etc.

Could be referring to his adopted family or he may refer to army friends as "family"?

All good theories, but the inclusion of it at the beginning of an episode in which we learn Danny is an orphan is too much of a coincidence to be that simple, especially in a Moffatt episode. Methinks Danny has a few skeletons in his closet.

fatsal wrote:

All good theories, but the inclusion of it at the beginning of an episode in which we learn Danny is an orphan is too much of a coincidence to be that simple, especially in a Moffatt episode. Methinks Danny has a few skeletons in his closet.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we will see more about this as the series goes on.

I liked it. I believe there definitely is a creature. It's an episode about the danger of the Dr's curiosity. He gets something in his head and he just HAS to know, no matter the cost. And Clara finally has to get through to him that 'here there be dragons'. Some things have to remain a mystery, even to him. Capaldi seems very quick to put his own life at risk to learn things. He hooked his brain up to the Dalek, he lets the teller scan his brain, etc. But every now and then he has to let one go.

He reminds me of Dr Channard from hellraiser 2.

"I have to see. I have to know."