S7E15: The Day of the Doctor [50th Anniversary] (SPOILERS)

Ahem, this is a reminder to stay off political discussions - too much of a hot topic  

Jany

squishy wrote:

 Not sure if there ever will be any explanation as to how both "The End of Time" and "Day of the Doctor" can coexist.  Much like the request to UNIT to get the file "from the seventies or eighties depending on the dating" that got slipped in last night.

Huh? The file from "the seventies or eighties" is reference to The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors - both of which saw the Brigadier involved. Sure he was retiring in Five, but you know Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart...he'd have sat down and filed a report about it anyway.

As for End of Time and Day of the Doctor can co-exist...two separate divisions of Time Lord High Command. End of Time focused on the High Council (Parliament)'s plan to avoid both their own destruction (Note Hurt sent both Time Lords and Daleks a message telling them both he was going to use The Moment).

Day of the Doctor focuses on the Military Command (Pentagon, basically). The guys actually FIGHTING the war.

This means when Gallifrey is eventually found and restored, we're going to have the Military, who is sympathetic to the Doctor and ultimately agreed to the plan in the first place, and we are going to have the High Council - who are batcrap crazy and want to blow up time.

Fortunately, we also have the Master on hand to keep the High Council distracted with his combination of Hannibal Lecter and Emperor Palpatine Routine that hopefully the Military can seize control of the Giant Red Button that Destroys All of Time before Rassilion pushes it.


Remember: Gallifrey is frozen in stasis. All this stuff with the Time Lords is going to have to be worked out.

I was kinda disappointed with it -- though that's in large part because it wasn't what I was expecting at all. Until the last 20 minutes or so, I thought it was kinda boring? And Hurt's Doctor didn't seem the least bit menacing or formidable to me. They kept talking about how hardcore he was (he's done terrible things and all that jazz), but all we really saw him do was shoot two words on a wall.

I expected more from the Time War, too. Davies built it up as this crazy thing with crazy names and plans to become bodiless souls and whatnot -- stuff so terribly nuts the fracking Master ran and hid -- and here Moffat gave us shooting and children. Meh.

Nice to see Tom at the end, though I'm not really sure what was supposed to be up with that scene. I'm thinking we were supposed to find it encouraging -- the smile on Matt Smith's face seemed to suggest as much -- though the look on Tom's face was anything but. Poor guy looked terrified.

I quite enjoy that we're seeing a new direction for the Doctor. I mean, there was only so much they could so with "The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords, like Superman, but ... not..."

On Tumblr, someone suggested that the reason why the Doctor has been going with younger and younger forms was to help distance himself from what he'd done to Gallifrey. Now that he knows Gallifrey is safe, that is why he will be comfortable with looking older again.

I really hope they play this Gallifrey plot out and not just leave it hanging because I want to see it!

Rewatching the ending right now and something struck me.

Tom Baker is wearing clothing that is color coordinated to his old outfit. Green off colored jacket, white shirt, red, brown, and yellow ascot, maroon pants, brown shoes.

Now THAT is clever.

Wes Crayon wrote:

I expected more from the Time War, too. Davies built it up as this crazy thing with crazy names and plans to become bodiless souls and whatnot -- stuff so terribly nuts the fracking Master ran and hid -- and here Moffat gave us shooting and children. Meh.

All we got to see was the final day of the Time War - the Fall of Arcadia. The crazy stuff that pushes the budget into the stratosphere likely never will be realized in film.

I still hold out hope that one day we'll get to see the Could-Have-Been King and his army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres.

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Nice to see Tom at the end, though I'm not really sure what was supposed to be up with that scene. I'm thinking we were supposed to find it encouraging -- the smile on Matt Smith's face seemed to suggest as much -- though the look on Tom's face was anything but. Poor guy looked terrified.

To be fair, The Curator is seeing things from the other side. "You have a lot to do."

Also, I think it's more the fact Tom Baker, bless his heart, is getting up there in years and simply isn't the actor he used to be. For instance, I'm fairly certain the "Congratulations" handshake was ad libbed and aimed at Matt from Tom and they just kept it in for the fact it is touching.

I just loved the fact we had the oldest surviving actor to play the Doctor playing what may very well be the eldest incarnation of the Doctor - one who had decided to retire (and also had the ability to willingly alter his appearance).

Also, it was pretty dang cheeky of them too. On one hand, we had a scene cheekily admit that Capaldi was the thirteenth regeneration, and then almost immediately afterwards, we get the scene with Tom that also cheekily remarks that that limit is going to be surpassed.

jaredofmo wrote:

I quite enjoy that we're seeing a new direction for the Doctor. I mean, there was only so much they could so with "The Doctor is the last of the Time Lords, like Superman, but ... not..."

On Tumblr, someone suggested that the reason why the Doctor has been going with younger and younger forms was to help distance himself from what he'd done to Gallifrey. Now that he knows Gallifrey is safe, that is why he will be comfortable with looking older again.

I really hope they play this Gallifrey plot out and not just leave it hanging because I want to see it!

Exactly what I was thinking earlier today! It makes me wonder how the Doctor might be portrayed by Capaldi in light of these events.

The War Doctor criticises the 10th and 11th for acting childish and being "ashamed" of being grown up. Of course, we know that the reason the Doctor is more childish in his 10th and 11th incarnations (and at times in the 9th's, too) is that the guilt of choosing that "grown up" decision to destroy Gallifrey has made him resent being older and wiser, and he wanted to be more naive and innocent. My point is, now that the Doctor knows he saved Gallifrey, I wonder if this means that the Doctor will be more "grown up" now? Moffat's decision to get Capaldi in as the Doctor seems to make more sense now since he will obviously be a more serious Doctor.

Personally I hope so. I love the 10th Doc and I'm fairly fond of the 11th, too, but a serious Doctor is certainly what we need again and I'm looking forward to seeing if Capaldi will give us that. If we're going by what both him and Moffat have said in interviews so far, we know that his Doctor will be somewhat darker. So I look forward to it very much so indeed!

I hope Capaldi will be akin to Pertwee's take on the character. Not above a good joke, but able to roll up the metaphorical sleeves when it's time to be serious. And not in Tennant and Smith's "Dark, Brooding" way.


Also, I fell in love with Hurt's incarnation the minute he berated them for holding the Screwdrivers out like weapons. "What are you going to do? Build a cabinet at them?!"

I really have been getting sick of the Screwdriver being used as a magic wand.

Rust wrote:

I hope Capaldi will be akin to Pertwee's take on the character. Not above a good joke, but able to roll up the metaphorical sleeves when it's time to be serious. And not in Tennant and Smith's "Dark, Brooding" way.


Also, I fell in love with Hurt's incarnation the minute he berated them for holding the Screwdrivers out like weapons. "What are you going to do? Build a cabinet at them?!"

I really have been getting sick of the Screwdriver being used as a magic wand.

I always criticize fellow cosplayers in character just like that when they hold the screwdrivers like weapons.  Now I have another line to use "Why are you holding your screwdrivers like that?  They are scientific instruments not Walther Pistols!!"

Rust wrote:

I hope Capaldi will be akin to Pertwee's take on the character. Not above a good joke, but able to roll up the metaphorical sleeves when it's time to be serious. And not in Tennant and Smith's "Dark, Brooding" way.


Also, I fell in love with Hurt's incarnation the minute he berated them for holding the Screwdrivers out like weapons. "What are you going to do? Build a cabinet at them?!"

I really have been getting sick of the Screwdriver being used as a magic wand.

This. All of it.

^Of course, then they used it to exactly that effect on a Dalek later on.

Wes Crayon wrote:

^Of course, then they used it to exactly that effect on a Dalek later on.

THAT I could actually buy, since there were three of them. I just took it to be they were overriding its controls and sent it hurdling out of the painting. The Doctor's done it before in Asylum - granted he had to physically interact with the software in the Dalek battle chassis to deactivate it's motion controls, but with three Sonics...I can buy remote interface.

"I'm reversing the polarity, YOU'RE reversing it the other way. We're giving it a complex."

^Yeah, but look at the visual! They totally magicked that Dalek. XD

And I think you're right about Tom Baker not meaning to look as confused and terrified as he did... but wow. They should've filmed that bit again with more instruction! "SMILE, Tom! You're not supposed to be frightening the children."

That reminds me; I genuinely heard some people say as we were walking out of the cinema, "Who was the old guy at the end?" and one kid said, "I hope that man at the end isn't the new Doctor cos he's old."

Wes Crayon wrote:

And I think you're right about Tom Baker not meaning to look as confused and terrified as he did... but wow. They should've filmed that bit again with more instruction! "SMILE, Tom! You're not supposed to be frightening the children."

Maybe a subtle wink and nod to Hartnell?

"He flubbed the line..."
"TOO LATE! KEEP GOING!"

Rust wrote:

squishy wrote:

 Not sure if there ever will be any explanation as to how both "The End of Time" and "Day of the Doctor" can coexist.  Much like the request to UNIT to get the file "from the seventies or eighties depending on the dating" that got slipped in last night.

Huh? The file from "the seventies or eighties" is reference to The Three Doctors and The Five Doctors - both of which saw the Brigadier involved. Sure he was retiring in Five, but you know Alistair Gordon Lethbridge-Stewart...he'd have sat down and filed a report about it anyway.

I'll have to watch again.  I took the comment to refer to the whole "was Pertwee exiled in the 1970's or was it really the near 80's future with the female Prime Minister, then Mawdryn Undead screwed the whole timeline up" UNIT dating conundrum.  There was some activity going on so I didn't actually hear as to what file was being requested.

I'm glad the rest of you have figured out how the whole Rassilon vs. Military angle makes sense of this story.  An entertaining theory that appears to explain it all, although I've not rewatched "End of Time" to see if there are any offhand comments that would contradict the theory.  Now all we need is the writers to use it when the next Doctor finally finds and saves Gallifrey two seasons from now.

At least the Doctor now has a reason to get into adventures for the next couple years.  The writers can always claim the Doctor is on the lookout for clues about Gallifrey.  With the TARDIS firmly under control there is less and less explanation all the time as to how the Doctor gets into so many of these situations.

I believe it was a "UNIT Dating Controversy" joke, as squishy pointed out. I do like the new direction, though. It'll be nice for the Doctor to have a "goal" for once.

I was pleasantly surprised by this.

I don't think it was necessary to create the War Doctor for this story. It would've had more weight if he'd been 8. Since he ends up not destroying Gallifrey, Moffat didn't have to worry about tarnishing a classic Doctor's legacy. Modern Doctors scorning him could've been a metacommentary on how poorly the TV movie was received. They built up the War Doctor to be so bloodthirsty & despicable that seeing him be so wishy-washy about double genocide was a disappointing waste of a regeneration.

It was a cool moment seeing all the Doctors save Gallifrey, but does it cause a paradox with "The End of Time?"

I liked the other plotline even though I'm scared of Zygons. It didn't conflict with the Zygons waiting for global warming to conquer Earth in "Terror of the Zygons." I'm know curious about how that treaty will work, but we'll probably never find out. We did learn why Queen Elizabeth was so mad at the Doctor in "The Shakespeare Code."

I wish they could've had more involvement from the classic Doctors.

I see The Doctor finding Gallifrey, and they help him regenerate with another set of regenerations. It's all about the continuation of the story.

Yeah, my major disappointment was not having a resolution to the Zygon story in the episode.

I think we're meant to infer that the terms were fair to both humans & Zygons.

Perhaps they learned their lesson from the Silurian two-parter and realized dramatizing two sides making a treaty wasn't all that interesting?

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:

I don't think it was necessary to create the War Doctor for this story. It would've had more weight if he'd been 8. Since he ends up not destroying Gallifrey, Moffat didn't have to worry about tarnishing a classic Doctor's legacy. Modern Doctors scorning him could've been a metacommentary on how poorly the TV movie was received. They built up the War Doctor to be so bloodthirsty & despicable that seeing him be so wishy-washy about double genocide was a disappointing waste of a regeneration.

Eh. I think the Warrior (Refuse to call him "War Doctor") was needed to serve the story a bit. Making it be McGann...I agree with Moffat here. Making it any of the Classic Doctors would have been a mistake. If you go back to the 2005 series, the whole "Doctor destroyed Gallifrey and the Daleks" is handled very, very carefully. We're only given bits and pieces and it isn't until The End of Time that we see why the Doctor had cause to push the button on his home planet.

But The End of Time was only one facet of Time Lord society. As this story pointed out: What about everyone else?

McGann probably could have worked just as well for the story, but I respect the team for wanting to keep the Classic Doctor legacies intact. Also, with Night of the Doctor basically confirming Big Finish Audios as part of canon, McGann is actually one of the most kind incarnations of the character - making it all the more implausible he was the one that set off the Moment.

As for why the Warrior was the way he was...it was the final day of the Time War and the final day of his life. When we saw him in Night he was a man in his prime. 40 or 50 years of constant warfare in a galaxy on fire...I don't doubt he'd be beaten down and "old" at that point.

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It was a cool moment seeing all the Doctors save Gallifrey, but does it cause a paradox with "The End of Time?"

"The High Council is in emergency session. They have their own plan."
"To heck with the High Council, their plans have already failed..."

First Lines we hear from the General and his attache. This, to me, pretty much says outright that The End of Time and The Day of the Doctor occur at the same time.

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I'm know curious about how that treaty will work, but we'll probably never find out.

That...or we will. They've got the costuming for Zygons now. It'd be silly not to reuse them.

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I wish they could've had more involvement from the classic Doctors.

Eh. The story was pretty crowded as it was - and that's without Eccelston's involvement. I thought bringing in the oldest surviving Doctor (playing, ironically, the Eldest Doctor) was enough of a bow to the Classic series without trying to shoehorn Colin, McCoy, and Davison in as well.

"Night of the Doctor" shows that 8 had become unhinged by the Time War & showing his compassion be tested to the breaking point would be dramatically effective. We don't see the War Doctor commit any war crimes & he's redeemed by not pressing the big red button so it's not as if putting 8 in that role would've ruined him.

Eh. To each their own, I suppose.

I saw nothing wrong with Hurt personally - he's certainly no more "offensive" then the Meta Crisis Doctor nonsense. We don't see him commit any war crimes to be ashamed of, true, but then again the only two times we saw him was the first day of his life and the last day of his life.

Evil Monkey Pope wrote:

I think we're meant to infer that the terms were fair to both humans & Zygons.

Certainly. But I would have liked to have had one more scene with Kate L-S and the Doctor(s) where she sums everything up. Especially something like her leaving the three Doctor behind and quipping, "Like Dad said, Nice Chap, all of you." Also, are we to infer Osgood is the another Lethbridge-Stewart? The line of about her sister seemed to imply this but it never gets mentioned.

Rust wrote:

Eh. To each their own, I suppose.

I saw nothing wrong with Hurt personally - he's certainly no more "offensive" then the Meta Crisis Doctor nonsense. We don't see him commit any war crimes to be ashamed of, true, but then again the only two times we saw him was the first day of his life and the last day of his life.

I rather liked Hurt's Doctor. You get the sense that by the end of his life, he's a sad, lonely old man because of the things he's done. I do admit, I wish we could have seen something more concretely "Bad" about him.The "No More" scene went on a bit and didn't seem to go anywhere. Though, I guess he did use the TARDIS - a living thing - to kill Daleks.