S5E7: Amy's Choice

jfh1970 wrote:

Speaking of cracks I didn't see any in this recent episode. BTW good catch on the eye theme. I was only able to think about the Atraxi when I saw the eye in the mouth element.

I tell you were I have been seeing cracks, everywhere! I don't know if its just me but the whole crack thing seems to be becoming like "42"...

I thought it was going to turn out to be the "Celestial Toymaker" and was disappointed when it was not!
That would have been a great kept secret.

The tie up at the episode end was a bit of a let down.

ok, i'm back on board, again. i didn't hate this episode, but i didn't love it, either. another down the middle(although i would rank this up there with victory to the daleks on the good episodes this series).

for anyone who hasn't watched the trial of a time lord(imo, the only episodes you should watch of colin baker), the episode was a great nod to the valeyard(without saying the name, which kind of bugged me.).

it did remind me of the mind robber a bit, and even the mad monk. but somehow, i knew who it was. the character playing the "evil" doctor, did a great job contrasting smith(i actually think most of smith's "good" acting in this episode is when they talk to each other).

i do think the aliens/old people was kind of gimmicky. i kept thinking of resident evil 4(with old people), especially when they were trying to get into the house, and i heard a chainsaw. i liked the cold star though(don't know if that could happen, but i liked the idea of it), and it reminded me of the twilight episode where the earth had drifted away from the sun and everyone was freezing to death.

there was no big reference to the "crack" thread(unless you count the eyeball aliens). that was a plus to me. the big story contridiction i saw was that amy loved the doctor, UNTILL rory died. if rory hadn't died, she would have chosen the doctor. sorry for anyone who defends amy, but that doesn't seem like real love to me(more like a guilt trip over him dying).

now mysterylad, i liked most of you're review, however, at the end, i think you went out of line. can i not dislike these episodes/series, just because it isn't that good? that's like saying that i didn't enjoy the new nightmare on elm street movie because i went in thinking it was a bad movie, not that the story was garbage itself. that's like saying i don't like star wars episodes 1-3 because i compare them to episodes 4-6, not because they just weren't that good.

everyone is entitled to they're opinion. you can love this series, i can dislike it. just because i dislike them doesn't make them the worst stories ever written, but neither does you loving them make them the best episodes ever. to each they're own.

Mysterylad... we can certainly dislike the new series if it just isn't doing anything for us. I really just don't like the new series that much. I went in hoping to be wowed and right now, I'm mostly arching a brow. The music has me more intrigued more than anything else in the series. It's just not... interesting. It builds up the momentum and then it just falls flat on its face. It's just kind of well, boring for me. :/ It's not the most boring thing I've ever seen but for "Doctor Who" even some of the more boring parts of "The E-Space Trilogy" were more exciting.
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I'm wondering about whether it was actually revealed directly or not that Amy loves the Doctor. Perhaps I missed that? The way I've been seeing her is that she loves the Doctor for the adventures and excitement that he brings into her life. I think the whole reason she took off with him is either because she's not ready to settle down or is afraid to do so. I think that she truly loves Rory too and his death reminded her of that. It didn't determine her choice, but it's clear that they're not on the same page yet. He wants to nest and she wants to fly.

Of course I could be very wrong too.

Bret and a1c, don't get me wrong: you guys are totally entitled to your opinion, and I'm not trying to say, "You don't like them, so you're wrong." I would never question your right to like what you like and dislike what you dislike, no would I question the validity of those opinions. It just seems to me that most of the criticisms I've read thus far, while ostensibly about the quality of the episodes, tend to be based more on personal tastes. Granted, that is fine and fair; I just don't think of that as "criticism" in the academic sense of the word. It also ensures I won't understand where you're coming from: just as you guys can't get inside my head, I can't get inside yours.

Does that clear it up any? No offense was intended! I was just trying to spark discussion.

jfh1970 wrote:

I'm wondering about whether it was actually revealed directly or not that Amy loves the Doctor. Perhaps I missed that? The way I've been seeing her is that she loves the Doctor for the adventures and excitement that he brings into her life. I think the whole reason she took off with him is either because she's not ready to settle down or is afraid to do so. I think that she truly loves Rory too and his death reminded her of that. It didn't determine her choice, but it's clear that they're not on the same page yet. He wants to nest and she wants to fly.

Of course I could be very wrong too.

If you are wrong, you're not alone. That's the impression I'm getting, too. Amy doesn't love the Doctor in the romantic sense; he has been her personal symbol of freedom over the course of her entire life, and as such she clings to him as a way to stave off her inevitable "growing up." It's like she said to Rory in this episode, "We're in a time machine...it can be the night before our wedding for as long as we want." (Or something to that effect.) She loves Rory, and she's only now coming to realize that she's kept some distance in their relationship because of that nagging desire to be "free," whatever that means.

The Doctor is Pooh and Tigger rolled up into one; Amy is Christopher Robin. Doesn't get much more British than that.

mysterylad wrote:

Bret and a1c, don't get me wrong: you guys are totally entitled to your opinion, and I'm not trying to say, "You don't like them, so you're wrong." I would never question your right to like what you like and dislike what you dislike, no would I question the validity of those opinions. It just seems to me that most of the criticisms I've read thus far, while ostensibly about the quality of the episodes, tend to be based more on personal tastes. Granted, that is fine and fair; I just don't think of that as "criticism" in the academic sense of the word. It also ensures I won't understand where you're coming from: just as you guys can't get inside my head, I can't get inside yours.

Does that clear it up any? No offense was intended! I was just trying to spark discussion.

Yup it does and no offense was taken.

I definitely don't criticise the show from any viewpoint other than a personal taste kind of thing. Well, the music I do, but I have no complaints against the music itself and have defended it a few times because DW has produced some of the best tv show music ever. TV show music is rarely this good.

I'm trying to like the 11th Doctor, it's just hard.
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mysterylad wrote:

jfh1970 wrote:

I'm wondering about whether it was actually revealed directly or not that Amy loves the Doctor. Perhaps I missed that? The way I've been seeing her is that she loves the Doctor for the adventures and excitement that he brings into her life. I think the whole reason she took off with him is either because she's not ready to settle down or is afraid to do so. I think that she truly loves Rory too and his death reminded her of that. It didn't determine her choice, but it's clear that they're not on the same page yet. He wants to nest and she wants to fly.

Of course I could be very wrong too.

If you are wrong, you're not alone. That's the impression I'm getting, too. Amy doesn't love the Doctor in the romantic sense; he has been her personal symbol of freedom over the course of her entire life, and as such she clings to him as a way to stave off her inevitable "growing up." It's like she said to Rory in this episode, "We're in a time machine...it can be the night before our wedding for as long as we want." (Or something to that effect.) She loves Rory, and she's only now coming to realize that she's kept some distance in their relationship because of that nagging desire to be "free," whatever that means.

The Doctor is Pooh and Tigger rolled up into one; Amy is Christopher Robin. Doesn't get much more British than that.

I agree with this as well. I thought this was a wonderful episode, and this was one of the reasons. Amy loves Rory, and his "death" made it clear to her. Rory clearly loves Amy as well, and is willing to go through a good deal to really win her heart...which he has done, even if they need to grow into this whole love/marriage thing a bit...

This is my favorite episode so far, and I'm really enjoying this series!

mysterylad, i'm really trying not to be upset with you, but you're defense of you're remarks come off back-handed. yes, my "criticisms" of the show are due to my personal taste. everyone's "criticisms" are due to they're personal taste, whether they shroud it in academic arguments or not.

every decision every human being makes on this planet is guided by that person's memmories, biology, hormones, and chemicals in the brain. the old saying "don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in they're shoe", is thrown around a lot, but i don't think a lot of people know what it actually means.

i may not be a college professor, or write detailed synopses to back up my claims, but that doesn't make them any more personall or invalid than your's.

Vicki wrote:

This is my favorite episode so far, and I'm really enjoying this series!

I'm in the same boat as you. I'll never forget when I first heard Smith was cast in the role and I kept thinking it was going to be a disaster. I kept thinking he was way tooooo young as well. I still feel a little bit that he is, but watching the new series has been a very fun experience indeed.

mysterylad wrote:

It just seems to me that most of the criticisms I've read thus far, while ostensibly about the quality of the episodes, tend to be based more on personal tastes.

I don't think that was the case with the other episodes I've disliked this series (namely the Dalek one; I thought others were disappointing but bloody despised that ep), but I will say that personal taste is probably why I wasn't into this episode at all.

However, I have seen these kinds of stories done well, and I don't think this one was. Off the top of my head, the best dream/reality stories I've seen were in Batman TAS and Justice League Unlimited -- and those worked because a) the dream worlds were actually compelling and interesting (worlds in which Bruce's parents lived and Krypton was never destroyed) and b) there was never any attempt whatsoever to confuse the viewer as to which was the real world. Here, neither dream world was very interesting (frozen TARDIS; Geriatrics of the Damned) and while it was more/less apparent that Preggo Amy World was fake (if only because we know she's sticking around for the remainder of the series and the Doctor probably wouldn't have a baby for a companion), the characters' uncertainty was clearly meant to affect us as well.

Nemesis Doctor was interesting, though one wonders why he was so adamant about making Amy choose. Why would the Doctor's dark side want to pick on Amy, and what the heck is so dark about that, anyway? I mean, you could say he wanted her to choose in order to drive her away from the Doctor... but I find that explanation unsatisfying.

Bret, I think he's saying there is a difference between saying "I don't like this cake because I don't like chocolate" and "I don't like this cake because it's burnt and tastes like pickles".

This is something I run into when Battlestar Galactica was running. Great show and all but I really really didn't enjoy it. Tough for me (or others) to tell if I was critiquing something bad, something I didn't like, or something I thought was bad because I didn't like it.

It's a tough concept with a show like this. Even nearly universal "bads" (like, say the 6th doctor) are still loved by a lot of people while others thought Tom Baker was ridiculous. Heck, Colin's BF stuff ended up bringing us some of the best Who out there.

None of us are here are claiming to be professional TV critics. Let's just take everyone's opinions as their own and try to write them that way (good or bad).

Anyway... Let's get back on topic!

I was a little disappointed with how much time was spent in the Tardis without leaving the console room. Was anyone else hoping to see the wardrobe again when Amy went off to find something warm to wear?

I thought the baddie was interesting, but the big reveal at the end didn't do a whole lot for me. I'm interested to see what they could do to take the concept further; I like recurring baddies that expand the universe over one-offs, personally.

bret_owen99 wrote:

mysterylad, i'm really trying not to be upset with you, but you're defense of you're remarks come off back-handed. yes, my "criticisms" of the show are due to my personal taste. everyone's "criticisms" are due to they're personal taste, whether they shroud it in academic arguments or not.

every decision every human being makes on this planet is guided by that person's memmories, biology, hormones, and chemicals in the brain. the old saying "don't judge someone until you've walked a mile in they're shoe", is thrown around a lot, but i don't think a lot of people know what it actually means.

i may not be a college professor, or write detailed synopses to back up my claims, but that doesn't make them any more personall or invalid than your's.

Well, it certainly wasn't intended to come across as back-handed, though I'm starting to see how it did from your perspective.

I think we have a linguistic disconnect here that revolves around what constitutes criticism and what constitutes opinion; the short form is that you don't really distinguish between the two (and you're not alone in that regard; lots of people, academics and non-academics alike, share that belief) and I, for better or for worse, do. I'm not trying to make your opinion seem less valid, though...I'm merely trying to express why, A.) I can't make sense of it (and how you, likewise, can't make sense of mine), and B.) that preconception and personal taste don't constitute a rational foundation for criticism (to which I should have added, "...from an academic perspective"), even though they may still be valid opinions (which again takes us back to the whole separation of criticism and opinion thing).

As for my tendency to construct arguments in formal fashion, please don't read too much into that...it's just the product of my education and its effect on my thought and debate processes. My opinion means no more than anyone else's here, a fact of which I am well aware!

Now, if you want to go ahead and be upset with me for a few days, that's cool. I might have it coming, because I obviously ruffled a few folks' feathers. But know this: you're still my favorite curmudgeon.

Back to the topic at-hand!

While I enjoyed the episode, it isn't one that I would go out of my way to watch again. I would pull out some old favorites of mine, say Green Death or The Daemons anytime to watch them. I doubt that I would do that with this one. It is one of those, once the mystery is solved, I don't have a desire to watch it again.

Ronpur wrote:

It is one of those, once the mystery is solved, I don't have a desire to watch it again.

Not to start trouble, but you can say that about quite a few DW stories classic and new. Despite knowing what the mystery is, even though I have the feeling we still don't know fully everything, I would watch this story again. I just really enjoyed watching the evolution of the relationship between Rory and Amy as well as Amy herself. I was worried for a bit that she was going to turn into a Rose clone, but now I don't think I need to be.

Hope I didn't speak too soon.

jfh1970 wrote:

Ronpur wrote:

It is one of those, once the mystery is solved, I don't have a desire to watch it again.

Not to start trouble, but you can say that about quite a few DW stories classic and new. Despite knowing what the mystery is, even though I have the feeling we still don't know fully everything, I would watch this story again. I just really enjoyed watching the evolution of the relationship between Rory and Amy as well as Amy herself. I was worried for a bit that she was going to turn into a Rose clone, but now I don't think I need to be.

Hope I didn't speak too soon.

Yes, but for some reason, I enjoy watching those again. I get the feeling, this is one that I won't. But, a month from now, I may enjoy watching i again. The Rory-Amy thing just isn't that thrilling to me.

Quote :

good catch on the eye theme

The Daleks also now have a real biological eye in their eyepiece.

One thing I am getting really bored with in regards to the new series is that it's all about Amy. Amy this, Amy that... Amy's choice, Amy must do this... Amy must save the world...

It's getting to the point that I hope she turns into the living statue just so that way the Doctor can act without her.
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jfh1970 wrote:

Ronpur wrote:

It is one of those, once the mystery is solved, I don't have a desire to watch it again.

Not to start trouble, but you can say that about quite a few DW stories classic and new. Despite knowing what the mystery is, even though I have the feeling we still don't know fully everything, I would watch this story again. I just really enjoyed watching the evolution of the relationship between Rory and Amy as well as Amy herself. I was worried for a bit that she was going to turn into a Rose clone, but now I don't think I need to be.

Hope I didn't speak too soon.

I also enjoyed that aspect, it was great watching Amy realizing how much Rory means to her...I'm thrilled that Rory/Amy does not equate to Mickey/Rose. My personal preferences are definitely coming into play, though, [as they should] because while I didn't much care for, and sometimes even actively disliked Rose, especially in her earlier episodes, I liked Amy from the start -- Rory too, and after this episode, I like him even more, where Mickey was a bit...meh...for me [though I never disliked him, and grew to like him better as he progressed].

Drathro wrote:

Quote :

good catch on the eye theme

The Daleks also now have a real biological eye in their eyepiece.

Out of curiosity, what does this have to do with "Amy's Choice"?
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Because the episode contributed to the ongoing "eye" theme of the series, and the Dalek's biological eye is something I hadn't noted while running down examples in this (and other) episodes.

mysterylad wrote:

Because the episode contributed to the ongoing "eye" theme of the series, and the Dalek's biological eye is something I hadn't noted while running down examples in this (and other) episodes.

Ah, fair enough! I was just asking.
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a1cmustangpilot wrote:

mysterylad wrote:

Because the episode contributed to the ongoing "eye" theme of the series, and the Dalek's biological eye is something I hadn't noted while running down examples in this (and other) episodes.

Ah, fair enough! I was just asking.
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Aye, and it was a great question!!




So Sorry for that!