S6E13: The Wedding of River Song

Amy, Rory and River have to come back, there is something wrong with this (story) universe.

Here's what I gleaned from the last two seasons:
The Pandora Open/Big Bang happened early in River's time stream. The Time of Angles after.

Two statements made by River bugged me: in The Pandora Opens River state "You taught me". In The Time of Angles River stated she "learned from the best". ... "To bad you weren't there".

At first I thought this was a time line of new memories being played out with the Doctor/River interaction. I came to realize this was flawed logic: one of these statements had to be the real memory.

If one assumes no bloopers and no writing one self in a corner then these two statements had to be "real" of current memories. The only way I see to resolve this issue is to use the reboot of the universe as a break point in the story. Before the reboot, River was not a peon of the Silence. After the reboot she became the peon of the Silence. The universe was not total recovered. After all, the restoration field only partly resorted the Dalek.

We know River was in Stormcage because she "KILLED" the Doctor in The Time of Angles. We only assumed that she was in Stormcage in The Pandora Opens because of the same. As far as we know, she could have been in Stormcage because she raided a tomb without a permit.

I bet we see more episode explaining the creepy, white Silence dudes.

I also bet that when we see episodes with the creepy, white Silence dudes we will also see Amy and/or River and/or Rory. I hope we see more of Canton.

No more free telephone calls from the TARDIS.

Hitman, we couldn't be farther apart on the issue of Moff. In fact, I think Wes Crayon is vocalizing what I'm thinking quite well.

No, I don't like Moffat two series in, and I dont' expect to. I also find J.K. Rowling simplistic and childish. That's not to say she isn't a billionaire, and the Harry Potter books aren't good, but are they classics? I would argue no, and I would say the same about Moffat's era so far.

As far as giving it a sense of danger, we know that Matt Smith isnt' going anywhere. So to start out the series with the Doctor "Dying", isn't just anti-climax, it's not really a cliffhanger. We know he's going to weasel out of it somehow. I would rather of had a "Water of Mars" incident, instead of a Flesh suit/Robot suit cop out. I'm sorry, it is what it is.

Doc 11 really died at the beginning of this series, but then sent letters out to work out a plan to save his hide, just like he implanted words into Amelia Pond so that he wouldn't really disapear into the crack. Doc 10 may have relied on others to sacrifice themselves, but Doc 11 really takes the cake in weaseling out of situations.

I always love how people have dogged on RTD for having bigger than BIG finale's, but what has Moffat done so far? Series one, Re-Boot the Universe. Series two, kill the Doctor, only to not kill him. What's next? The only thing he has left, to reveal who is the Doctor.

I was all for Cartmel's master plan, but Moffat's master plan is to reveal or reboot everything we've known so far, because he thinks that he's the only one clever enough to write it.

One thing still unexplained is Amy being told, "You will bring the Silence."

Calixar wrote:

One thing still unexplained is Amy being told, "You will bring the Silence."

I think it's just because she will...'bring'...Melody and SHE will bring the Silence, because after all, we learned that the 'Silence' also refers to the Doctor's death.

Just finished watching The Wedding of River Song. I adored it.


In Season Five we saw that something was afoot in the Universe and someone tried to destroy the universe by remote controlling the TARDIS. This set up the fact that there was something after the Doctor, something that had "Silence Will Fall" as a motto.

In Season Six we saw the culmination of that threat in the form of the Silence and we learned that Silence Will Fall when the Question is Answered. We learned a place where the question will be asked, and we know that should it be answered, presumably it will lead to whoever was behind the attack on the TARDIS during The Big Bang will attempt to do so again.

It's entirely possible that The Big Bang was the direct result of the Question being answered. With the Question being What Are You Doing Here? "Doctor Who?".

Incidentally, I think Moffat's being cute when he threw in references to "Fall of Eleven" and the origin of the Question. That question has been asked countless times throughout the show's run, and we all know the answer to it: "Just The Doctor."

We also know from A Good Man Goes To War, that several cultures view the Doctor as a great and powerful Warrior. So when the Doctor comes to the Fields of whereever (Hopefully signs of a finale that isn't set on Earth) and answers that question, silence will fall. And somehow, that's something the Silence want to prevent by keeping the Doctor from answering the question.

So ultimately, we leave the series with more questions, but we have the answers to those presented to us in this season. The only unresolved question is who was the voice that spoke "Silence Will Fall" in Season 5? And something tells me we'll find out next year.

There's only one big gaping hole in your logic Rust (got you this time!). Moffat also wrote a couple of episodes called Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead. In these episodes we are first introduced to Moffat's end all/be all creation of River song.

In this story River song whispers in the Doctor's ear his real name to gain his trust (I highly doubt she whispered "Just the Doctor"). At the end of said stories the Doctor begged to know who she was, because she knew his name, and in his words, "There's only one way I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could."

So we know that she will be present when the question is answered. We know that she knows the real answer (even if no one else in the Universe hears it). We know that Moffat has much more River Song in store for us (picnic at Asgard, Jim the fish, Easter Island, etc, etc).

And perhaps, just perhaps, the fall of Eleven isn't defeat. Perhaps it's Eleven turning evil, just like 10 did. Perhaps he falls so far, because he does something unspeakable.

I'm running with this: the Question is what is the Doctor's name? River will be present when it's answered. However, his name is Old High Gallifreyan, the lost language of the Time Lords. In "The Time of Angels," he says, "There were days, there were many days, these words could burn stars and raise up empires, and topple Gods."

So the Doctor doesn't say his name because he can't.

And I also think Moffat is saving this as the final 11th Doctor story.

i love, all you guys. i haven't heard this much good sci fi debating since the lunch table in highschool. we all know the doctors name is engleburg humberdink. thats a name that can destroy worlds.

i'm sorry but i can't help but think that if the internet had existed during the key to time, there would be people shouting. you mean i watched all year for this crap! the last piece was a human! and after all that he just breaks the key appart and makes a "randomizer" to run from the black gaurdian who was lame anyway! and now i hear that girl who played princess astra is comming back to be the new assistant? what a load of crap! marry tam was so much better! but i guess you could have kept a quality actress on the show if the writers didn't suck so bad! i mean a planet thats a piece of the key and a mutated squid was hard enough to sit through but now we have to put up with this lalla ward actress who sucked, as the new assistant? thats it! i'm throwing my deny's fisher toys in the trash! this show has gone down hill i mean whats next a season devoted to the doctor being on trial only to find out that it's his evil final regeneration trying to kill him and steal his remaining regenerations! i tollerated this show through robert holmes and phillip hinchcliffs nonsense but i can't take it any more! bring barry letts back now!

and p.s i don't know who this douglas adams joker is but if "pirate planet" is any sign of his writting talent he will only destroy the show even further as the script editor, more like script destroyer if you ask me. this guy clearly has no future in writing!



that was a joke, if you take any of that personally, you have no sense of humor and should see bill cosby "himself" immediatlly.

Rassilon in the old days used a time scoop to bring races to Galifrey to compete for Timelord Amusement. Maybe they are like the Greek Gods Zeus etc.. The admits to leaving. Maybe he didnt like the Power and what they were doing with it? If you saw clash of the titans maybe the Doctor is a little more then he gives the appearance of. Im not saying he can transmute into a flying horse lol.

Mattylover no flying Horse figure its an example put your purse away. lol

Well we have until Season 7, and you think this is rambling wait..... till i have the flu or something i can drone on with this for pages.

I can not wait till they make Amy a grandmother before 30 lol

bret_owen99 wrote:

There's only one big gaping hole in your logic Rust (got you this time!). Moffat also wrote a couple of episodes called Silence in the Library/The Forest of the Dead. In these episodes we are first introduced to Moffat's end all/be all creation of River song.

In this story River song whispers in the Doctor's ear his real name to gain his trust (I highly doubt she whispered "Just the Doctor"). At the end of said stories the Doctor begged to know who she was, because she knew his name, and in his words, "There's only one way I would ever tell anyone my name. There's only one time I could."

Yup, was just reminded of that line as a matter of fact. Adds a whole new dimension to the Question, especially with jared's observations.

Quote :

So we know that she will be present when the question is answered. We know that she knows the real answer (even if no one else in the Universe hears it). We know that Moffat has much more River Song in store for us (picnic at Asgard, Jim the fish, Easter Island, etc, etc).

I doubt it. My guess is River will be around up until the Anniversary, and then that will be the end of her tale. As for the rest of it, I doubt much of those adventures will be shown. Moffat's thrown several bones to Big Finish for when they eventually get around to doing Doctor 11 stories. An entire 200 year gap is definitely something to play with.

Quote :

And perhaps, just perhaps, the fall of Eleven isn't defeat. Perhaps it's Eleven turning evil, just like 10 did. Perhaps he falls so far, because he does something unspeakable.

I don't think "The Fall of Eleven" is related to the Doctor at all. Sly winks and nods to the fact the Doctor's on his eleventh life are all well and good, but "The Fall of Eleven" is far too overt and dramatic.

That being said, we did get "He'll rise higher then ever before and fall so much farther", so it's not outside the realm of possibility. It may just be I'd rather not have another "End of the Doctor" storyline for awhile after this year.

Im still holding out for the Tardis materializing aboard the USS Enterprise but at this rate
It will be the The Aircraft Carrier Enterprise CVN 65. Which if they got the authorization would be the Best show ever! I know they could use the revenue were broke lol. We also have a left over USS enterprise space shuttle i think Burger king bought to use for a restaurant.

Could you imagine Admiral Doctor i think thats the highest rank we have. We may need billie piper back she would look cute in short shorts and a sailer hat lol.

Won't be the CVN 65, unless they hurry. She is to be retired in 2013. Actually,a retired Russian shuttle was turned into a restaurant!

rmlextreme wrote:

Im still holding out for the Tardis materializing aboard the USS Enterprise but at this rate
It will be the The Aircraft Carrier Enterprise CVN 65. Which if they got the authorization would be the Best show ever! I know they could use the revenue were broke lol. We also have a left over USS enterprise space shuttle i think Burger king bought to use for a restaurant.

Could you imagine Admiral Doctor i think thats the highest rank we have. We may need billie piper back she would look cute in short shorts and a sailer hat lol.

i always secretly wanted to see the tardis land on the bridge of the star trek enterprise. that would be one of the best crossovers of all time. the dialouge would be epic.

Well Dr who kinda blew it during closing time talking about a star trek Transporter in the elevator scene.


Im making a new thread lol ive got too lol follow me

Dr Who?? As far as I'm concern its Pete (Drax's line in The Armageddon Factor).

I don't think Moffat is a bad writer. Yea, the sequence in this season can blow one's mind if it is taken too serious. After all, Dr Who is a show. As any piece of science fiction entertainment one must suspend the notion of reality for the duration.

What I like about Moffat's style of story telling is that he gives enough information to allow the action to be played out and leave enough out to have his audience to fill in the gaps. In reality whether they fill in the right information, relative to Moffat's take, is irrelevant. He's probably laughing at us for trying to read too much into this season.

Examples I've found: A dysfunctional "Magic Door" allow the Dr to walk from one chapter to another while Renee must take the slower path (The Girl in the Fireplace).

Blink Wibbly, Wobbly, Timey, Wimey. Nightingale was the first to go and went further back in time than the Doctor and Martha. Sparrow handed the Doctor a packet which included the letter from Nightingale. As far as I'm concern this logic of mine is enough to come to a reasonable premiss that the Doctor set some of the interaction before hand. I'm happy with this.

I'm satisfied there was no program matter cop out. I would have accepted an unknown regeneration method due to River Song's giving up her remaining regenerations. How else are you going to keep good adversaries like the Master around to provide some good "how is he going to get out of this" moments.

I really enjoyed this episode, it was fun, emotional and exciting. I loved the cameos from Dickens and the Silurian doctor, but I'm getting sick of old monsters/allies coming back for the finale now.

However, the first time I watched it I wasn't pleased with the resolution, but the second time I didn't mind so much because I knew what to expect. I did think that it was going to be the Ganger Doctor that died (which I wouldn't have liked either).

Also, I thought that the fixed point in time was that the Tesalecta Doctor died, not the proper Doctor? Since if the fixed point was the real Doctor dying, then time would've still been messed up as River shot the Tesalecta Doctor. At least, that's what I picked up from the episode, I could be wrong.

I thought that, but then I noted the Blue Head's comments about events that are destined to happen after that fixed point in time. This means that that fixed point had to be a cheat, otherwise the other, later events would not be able to happen.

i still think and i could be totally wrong about this but the doctor did die, and when he used the ship to escape death it was the way he changed it, i kinda like to think that the brigs death inspired him to live rather than just go and die. i guess the thing i like about the story which has annoyed others is this fact. i could be wrong but i like it better that way. the thing is if the ship thats going around and torturing people for doing evil through time should have had records to show that they were the ones who had prevented him from dying so it would make sense that's why they never went back to kill river after the fact again, because they knew that she didn't do it and were in on the cover up to fool the silence. thats why river was allowed to live in prison instead with only the doc, her and the crew of the ship to know what had happened. could be wrong and i'm sure to some i am, but like i said, i like it this way and thats what i got out of it. i don't think this episode set up grandious expectations in my mind, it was just a cool way to start a season with the "death" of the main character. the journey is more important than the resolution, and it was a blast for me.

Fun wrap-up to the season. The best part for me is the Doctor's resolution to step back into the shadows...I've long said that, despite liking the new series for the most part, the Doctor's anonymity is what I miss most from the classic series.

Two things this discussion leads me to feel I must point out, though...

1. Moffat gets called on the carpet for recycling the bit players from his past episodes when, as far as episodes that degenerated into cheesy cameo-fests, RTD was the frakking king. I want to shoot myself in the face anytime I think too long about the final specials of the RTD era...Moffat's writing for kids, but he hasn't gone anywhere near that level of cloying, obsequious, self-congratulatory sappiness. So this practice isn't new, isn't Moffat's creation, and has actually been more pronounced in the past than it is now.

2. We also know for a FACT Moffat's time as show-runner has had budgetary restraints that, on at least one occasion, led to changes from the script: for "The Doctor's Wife," an Ood used in place of a new creature because there was no money to spend on a new creature. If you've got bean-counters refusing to let you make new monsters (and if it happened once, you know full frakking well it's happened times we don't know about), you're pretty much stuck with what you've already got: bit players and pre-existing monsters. That is going to negatively impact your ability to do new and interesting things (it will also force you to make monsters who don't stand up to much camera time, like in "The God Complex," or to use a lot of boring settings to keep things cheap, like half this season's episodes). If the show is suffering under anyone's reign, it isn't Moffat's...it's the Beeb's insistence that shows be make cheaper with each season (a totally stupid idea when applied to sci-fi).

I don't mind people disliking the Smith/Moffat Era on the grounds of taste, but it irks me when declarations are made and blame is cast without considering all the facts and possibilities.

Oh, mysterylad, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad someone thinks those complaints are ridiculous when the RTD finales were the height of 'cheesy cameo' overload.

I joke that the casting of "The End of Time" drained the BBC's 2009 budget.

kcooper76 wrote:

Oh, mysterylad, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm glad someone thinks those complaints are ridiculous when the RTD finales were the height of 'cheesy cameo' overload.

I actually don't take issue with the Moffat finales (or the arcs, etc) for that -- I've got bigger bones to pick -- but anyone who thinks I'm being inconsistent in criticizing Moffat for the same stuff RTD did should note that I criticized the heck out of RTD for that stuff (like "arcs" that barely get lip service as the series progresses until there's a huge blowout at the end) too.

Just saying that unless those same people praised RTD for doing the exact same thing, it's not necessarily ridiculous.

Oh, I know, Wes, I didn't mean you. You never made that complaint, but others have.

kcooper76 wrote:

Oh, I know, Wes, I didn't mean you. You never made that complaint, but others have.

Ditto. I was speaking in the general sense, anyway....the message boards in aggregate, as it were.