S5E12: The Pandorica Opens (Spoilers)

^o^CORVUS^o^ wrote:

how many times have the old Greek myths and Norse Eddas been told and re-told and re-imagined?

Oh, man, it gets on my nerves when people start talking about Thor having red hair or a magic belt and gloves... Who do they think they are, Stan Lee? You can't just go around making changes, it's practically blasphemous!

Sirs, there is only one Thor, and his name is Dr. Donald Blake! ...or Sigurd Jarlson! ...or possibly occasionally Eric Masterson!

...also he's good friends with Beta Ray Bill, space-horse.

This almost completely off-topic post brought to you by Cliffhanger Madness-- when you just can't stay sane waiting a week for the conclusion of a TV show, it's Cliffhanger Madness! Available everywhere, wherever a hobo pushes a shopping cart full of cans.

Wasn't there a Thor on Stargate? A grey alien, in fact?

Yes, cliff hanger madness, makes 7 days seam like 7 weeks!!

The worst was the end of Empire Strikes Back....3 years!!!

Ronpur wrote:

ReverendKain wrote:

This almost completely off-topic post brought to you by Cliffhanger Madness-- when you just can't stay sane waiting a week for the conclusion of a TV show, it's Cliffhanger Madness! Available everywhere, wherever a hobo pushes a shopping cart full of cans.

Yes, cliff hanger madness, makes 7 days seam like 7 weeks!!

The worst was the end of Empire Strikes Back....3 years!!!

Yeah, Empire was an agonizing yet awesome wait.

The second worst for me was the end of "Best of Both Worlds Part 1" I nearly put my foot through the TV screen because I knew then I had to wait all bloody Summer to find out if Riker actually killed Captain Picard (Locutus)!

I pray to almighty Rassilon that Doctor Who doesn't decide to go all cliffhanger on us. I DON'T want to wait a whole freakin' year to wait for the resolution. I'm pretty sure I'd have a stroke.

Just until Christmas!

The worst part about Best of Both Worlds was that I had heard a rumor Patrick Stewart was leaving the show!!

Ronpur wrote:

Just until Christmas!

The worst part about Best of Both Worlds was that I had heard a rumor Patrick Stewart was leaving the show!!

I had heard that too! That's why I thought it was actually possible that Captain Picard could be dead.

Looking back now, I'm sure it was probably all just planned hype.

As for the DW Christmas special, what if they made it a "one-off" that actually took place somewhere BETWEEN episodes of the current series so as to maintain the cliffhanger excitement for the Series 6 premiere? I wouldn't put it past them.

Wes Crayon wrote:

I don't see why you'd have trouble taking such an opinion seriously! If bret just up and said "WTH" (for example) without further comment, I wouldn't feel inclined to doubt his reaction of the episode in the least (even if I were curious to know more about what he didn't like). Nor would I feel inclined to be harshly dismissive of his view if I happened to enjoy the episode, or say that some people just like complaining.

Since I've already ceded that such an opinion might be valid despite having no argumentative foundation, we're just belaboring the point now. That said, let me give you some examples of useless chatter. Imagine any one of the following sentences standing alone with no further elaboration...

"You're wrong."

"It sucked."

"I didn't like it."

Now, if I leave it at that, what have I really said? I contributed nothing to the ongoing dialogue except an unqualified negative, the same as playground game of "No, it isn't!" (...and suddenly I'm reminded of the old Monty Python "Argument Sketch." ) While such comments do meet the defining criteria for the rudimentary communication of an idea or feeling, they certainly don't do anything to encourage further exploration of an idea or feeling. If a point is worth expressing at all, it's worth expressing well. This is the simplest way I can express my feeling on the matter. If that doesn't make sense to you ("sense" in this case meaning that whether or not you agree, you can nevertheless understand the argument as stated), we'll just have to chalk it up to an irreconcilable difference about the nature of discourse in an online environment.

As to whether or not I was harsh, that's in the eye of the beholder; it wasn't my intent.

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Granted, some people do just like complaining...

Especially sci-fi fans.

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...but that doesn't mean that the reasons behind their complaints (whether they share them or not) are invalid. Rather than being openly dismissive of said complaints, I'd just ignore them.

Again, I already agreed that their complaints might be valid, but without further explanation, there's no evidence to suggest that. Furthermore, I would argue that being openly dismissive of unqualified statements elicits further debate, some of which may be productive...like this one that's been going on for pages and pages.

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I don't especially want to "dissect" something I found unsatisfying (though I do enjoy bashing RTD episodes in snarky fashion); I mostly just want to know that I wasn't the only one who didn't enjoy them. Not that I'd suddenly change my opinion if I were alone in my dislike for a particular episode, but YANA moments are always nice.

If you feel the need for them, sure. I don't. We will not agree on this, either.

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Semantics! I wouldn't necessarily argue that "rationality" is confined to a true/false model, but I generally apply the term "logic" in that strict fashion (and thus how I'd use "logic/rationality"). Which is why I wouldn't expect perfect "logic" (or even perfect "rationality," for that matter) out of a Doctor Who episode discussion.

Wait, wait...did a BA in Philosophy just play the "That's just semantics!" card? I might just die of irony overdose...

(All kidding aside, this is something we might want to discuss via private message, because what you're blowing off as "semantics" was actually a reference to a concept I first encountered in the natural sciences (the reductionist approach vs. the holistic approach) that I've since found useful in just about every field of analytical study. It's too far afield to go into here, but if you want to discuss it further, let me know.)

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My undergrad degree is in philosophy, but I'm hoping to enter a creative writing program. I came to a point long ago at which I felt that, at the end of the day, philosophical debate was largely pointless.

Again, PM me.

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See, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Sure, fandoms can find just about anything to gripe about, but it's not as if these useless, repetitive "clues" week after week are an integral part of Doctor Who! If Moff had gone about building to the finale in what I'd argue would have been a more robust and compelling way, I doubt there would have been much complaining (unless it was executed poorly).

I think you have a more positive perception of fandom on the whole than I do. Try working a few years in the comic book industry and interacting with thousands of fanboys...then let me know if you think a good story told well is enough to keep them from complaining ad infinitum. On paper, you are 100% correct: the rational viewer should respond positively to a well-constructed narrative (though even structural criticisms can be largely subjective), but it doesn't often seem to work out that way. Even the best-executed story will fall flat with an audience who, for whatever reason (resistance to change, specific personal tastes, nature of emotional connection to the characters, etc.), is displeased with its direction or intent. Fans tend to bring a lot of baggage to the table, and as such their reactions to things aren't always rational.

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In any case, I don't think that wishing to avoid fandom gripes is a sufficient reason to stick to an inferior method of storytelling. I'm sure some prehistoric folks would have bemoaned the loss of the square wheel following the introduction of circular wheels, but that doesn't mean that those people should have been allowed to stifle innovation and improvements!

While I agree with this sentiment, I don't yet believe that an inferior method of storytelling has been used here. Ask me if I still feel this way after I've seen how it ends.

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I don't feel like he's reinvented anything -- even Smith's Doctor comes across as a Tennant impression to me. And I certainly haven't been pleased with this season... which is also in keeping with the status quo, as I haven't been a great fan of the 2005+ series in general). I do think that, on the whole, there have been less outright awful moments in this season than in an RTD season... but then, I kinda miss those moments.

This is clearly another matter of perception and taste, because I see this series as having reinvented the show on a number of levels. For one, I don't see many similarities between Smith and Tennant, though I've noticed that different people seem able to project their impressions of other Doctors onto him, which is fascinating. Secondly, both the Doctor and the overall narrative seem to have finally moved past the Time War that defined Nine and Ten. Third, the romance angle (the other thing that defined the RTD era) no longer involves the Doctor directly. Fourth, this series isn't nearly as dark or overwrought as its precessors (particularly the last few specials), and as such Doctor Who seems to have discovered a sense of whimsy and wonder that it's been lacking, which is (to my eyes) a long overdue reinvention.

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But why wouldn't it work? I don't understand why you're so confident about that! ...It's certainly easier said than done, but I hardly think it's impossible or even unrealistic.

See my above comments on fandom and the comic book industry, then cross-reference them with my earlier comments regarding established patterns and audience familiarity.

Just watched it.... not bad. Matt was awesome, some great little comedy lines. It was fun.

The only gripes I had were the Doctor not being too concerned about seeing a Cyberman arm, the Roman sword piercing the armor of a Cyberman (Silver Nemesis moment), the Doctor telling 12,000 spaceships to run away and they leave, and real people being Autons instead of shop dummies.

Otherwise one of the best uses of the Cybermen ever. But if the Daleks don't start killing everyone instantly next week I'll be very disappointed.

rdks wrote:

...the Roman sword piercing the armor of a Cyberman (Silver Nemesis moment)...

I think that was supposed to be a clue that Rory wasn't actually Rory. I don't remember whether or not the Doctor actually saw that, or if it was just Amy, who'd never met a Cyberman before and wouldn't know that stabbing one shouldn't have been possible.

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...the Doctor telling 12,000 spaceships to run away and they leave...

I actually liked this, but not because the ships left. I liked it because they had every intention of coming back, and were faking when they "ran off!" The Doctor has made so many of those speeches that scare off the enemy in recent years that I really appreciated this subversion of that particular trope.

Of course, it still doesn't explain why, with that many ships, they didn't just kill him. They must need him alive and in the Pandorica for some reason.

mysterylad wrote:

That said, let me give you some examples of useless chatter. Imagine any one of the following sentences standing alone with no further elaboration...

"You're wrong."

That's different from the points below, as it's an argumentative statement without qualification.

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"It sucked."

"I didn't like it."

Now, if I leave it at that, what have I really said? ... While such comments do meet the defining criteria for the rudimentary communication of an idea or feeling, they certainly don't do anything to encourage further exploration of an idea or feeling. If a point is worth expressing at all, it's worth expressing well.

But see, those comments do express their points well -- and if you left it at that, you'd have said precisely what you meant. I mean, after reading them, I'd have no doubt in my mind that you didn't enjoy the episode in question. They may not encourage further exploration or discussion, but not everyone is going for that.

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Furthermore, I would argue that being openly dismissive of unqualified statements elicits further debate, some of which may be productive...like this one that's been going on for pages and pages.

Not everyone has the time for prolonged online debate either! As something of a loser in life (though you don't appear to be), I am atypical in this respect.

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Wait, wait...did a BA in Philosophy just play the "That's just semantics!" card? I might just die of irony overdose...

I'm not sure what stereotypes you have regarding philosophy majors, but that was so long ago that I probably no longer fit them... if I ever did.

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(All kidding aside, this is something we might want to discuss via private message, because what you're blowing off as "semantics" was actually a reference to a concept I first encountered in the natural sciences (the reductionist approach vs. the holistic approach) that I've since found useful in just about every field of analytical study.)

I'll shoot you a PM, but I wasn't referring to your reference as semantics -- I was referring to your read of my prior statement (which stemmed from my read of your original comment). I agree that rational discussion isn't necessarily limited to "truths" or attempts to determine them (at least in discussions of fiction); that's just how I initially read your use of the term "logic" because that's how I tend to use the term. Ergo, our apparent disagreement stemmed from the respective "meanings" and connotations we attribute to the word. So, semantics.

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I think you have a more positive perception of fandom on the whole than I do. Try working a few years in the comic book industry

I'd probably enjoy that!

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Even the best-executed story will fall flat with an audience who, for whatever reason (resistance to change, specific personal tastes, nature of emotional connection to the characters, etc.), is displeased with its direction or intent. Fans tend to bring a lot of baggage to the table, and as such their reactions to things aren't always rational.

Well, that's true enough. It's also very much along the lines of what I was saying before, when I (mis)read your initial reference to logic. It does seem that I have a more accepting view of said responses (in that I don't necessarily view non-rational responses as invalid), though.

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While I agree with this sentiment, I don't yet believe that an inferior method of storytelling has been used here. Ask me if I still feel this way after I've seen how it ends.

Will do. Though even if next week's episode is satisfying, I'll still maintain that actually building towards a conclusion over a span of multiple episodes is superior to reiterating the same useless "clue" week after week.

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For one, I don't see many similarities between Smith and Tennant, though I've noticed that different people seem able to project their impressions of other Doctors onto him, which is fascinating.

I find it weird! There are entire swaths of Smith's dialogue that have almost seemed lifted verbatim from Tennant episodes, especially what with the cocky speechifying and whatnot. I can see how a longtime fan could project lingering impressions of past Doctors onto Smith, however, even if they've rewatched certain serials more recently (but especially if they haven't seen them since whenever). Me, I watched the bulk of the extant Troughton episodes last year -- for the first time -- so I have a more immediate impression of him that hasn't been augmented by the passing of time or childhood fondness. (Though I'll grant that he could be more Smith-like in the many missing episodes.)

(I also watched the Star Wars films for the first time a couple of months ago -- I never saw them in my youth -- so I have no problem saying that the prequels are inferior and that it has nothing to do with the perceived raping of my childhood. )

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Secondly, both the Doctor and the overall narrative seem to have finally moved past the Time War that defined Nine and Ten. Third, the romance angle (the other thing that defined the RTD era) no longer involves the Doctor directly. Fourth, this series isn't nearly as dark or overwrought as its precessors (particularly the last few specials), and as such Doctor Who seems to have discovered a sense of whimsy and wonder that it's been lacking, which is (to my eyes) a long overdue reinvention.

Huh. This might be a semantic dispute too! I'll grant those points (though I hadn't thought that the previous series had been particularly preoccupied with the Time War -- outside of the finales and episodes involving Daleks -- and very few episodes struck me as being particularly dark), but I wouldn't at all say that Moff has reinvented the show because the changes don't seem significant enough to warrant that term. It still seems very much like the same show to me, except in many ways -- perhaps in part because of high expectations -- I've enjoyed it even less.

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But why wouldn't it work?

See my above comments on fandom and the comic book industry, then cross-reference them with my earlier comments regarding established patterns and audience familiarity.

Yeah, I still don't see how that explains why it wouldn't work -- though it does suggest why the showrunner(s) and writers would be hesitant to try. You've said that Moff has reinvented the show this series, but what you're saying here suggests -- to my mind -- that they would never be so bold enough as to even attempt to truly reinvent it!

mysterylad wrote:

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...the Doctor telling 12,000 spaceships to run away and they leave...

I actually liked this, but not because the ships left. I liked it because they had every intention of coming back, and were faking when they "ran off!" The Doctor has made so many of those speeches that scare off the enemy in recent years that I really appreciated this subversion of that particular trope.

Of course, it still doesn't explain why, with that many ships, they didn't just kill him. They must need him alive and in the Pandorica for some reason.

I think the Doctor said something along the lines of "that'll keep them busy arguing for 30 minutes!" after his announcement to them from the middle of Stonehenge.

There were definitely unanswered questions, things that I thought would bother the Doctor. Mainly the presence of a destroyed Cyberman underneath Stonehenge... how did it get inside, and why was it blasted to bits? How did its head get outside but the body & arm were inside?

Edit: re-watching this, and the Doctor rattles on (when Rory kills the Cyberman body) about how it was originally attacked & damaged by locals ("never underestimate a Celt," lol). Still can't wait for part 2 to explain some things...

[quote="mysterylad
"You're wrong."

"It sucked."

"I didn't like it."

Now, if I leave it at that, what have I really said? I contributed nothing to the ongoing dialogue except an unqualified negative, the same as playground game of "No, it isn't!" (...and suddenly I'm reminded of the old Monty Python "Argument Sketch." ) While such comments do meet the defining criteria for the rudimentary communication of an idea or feeling, they certainly don't do anything to encourage further exploration of an idea or feeling. If a point is worth expressing at all, it's worth expressing well. [/quote]


ok, i hate to interupt a conversation in progress, but i have read all of this, and i do need to speak up about something. i have been one of the most negative people to speak up about this series(at least the moffat episodes/the first half of the series), and i feel like i have been unfairly lambasted at every opportunity(this isn't directed at you mysterylad, so dont' think i'm accusing you of anything).

every time i voice my opinion on an episode, or the direction of the series this is what i hear back:

"you're wrong!"

"it didn't suck!"

"i liked it!"

i've also gotten things like,

"there must be something wrong with you if you don't understand it",

" i love this new series, so it has to be successful",

"you don't enjoy it because you don't want to enjoy it",

and "you must not have like the "classic" series if you don't like this season".

i may not write long paragraphs like you or wes crayon, but in my eyes, those responses are just as limited as my feeling, and don't encourage me to continue conversations with anyone who say such things. i think i have been very civil in my responses, and have tried(time willing) to respond on this board, and in pm's.

what my point is(yes i have one), is that people like me may be negative, and may just make short statements about said episode/series, but if the response isn't a well thought out discussion(as you tend to do mysterylad), i wouldn't feel like having a conversation with a person who responds in such a mean and simplistic way. that's not to say that people shouldn't respond to my posts(i'm not that sensitive), but that they're response should be well thought out, and in-depth, not just a "uh-uh, you're wrong".

that is all.

bret_owen99 wrote:

what my point is(yes i have one), is that people like me may be negative, and may just make short statements about said episode/series, but if the response isn't a well thought out discussion(as you tend to do mysterylad), i wouldn't feel like having a conversation with a person who responds in such a mean and simplistic way. that's not to say that people shouldn't respond to my posts(i'm not that sensitive), but that they're response should be well thought out, and in-depth, not just a "uh-uh, you're wrong".

That's really all I've been trying to say. There is enough "white noise" in fandom already...we should have some productive discourse, and in my opinion, simple naysaying doesn't qualify.

Meanwhile, Wes is saying that not everyone wants to do that, especially when they don't like the episode, and he's got a point.

And the Internet goes on...um, Internetting.

(BTW: Wes, my joke about philosophy majors was just a joke, nothing more; hence the "All kidding aside..." at the beginning of the next paragraph. It was a playful jab at the classic stereotype: I've seen philosophy majors turn in one paper after another with no real point or original thought, just enough semantic wriggling about to fill the required number of pages. I'm sure you know the type.)

"I too find it VERY improbable that this disparate group of aliens would ALL work together like this, which makes me suspect that NONE of it is real."
if doctor who was a probable show then it wouldn't be doctor who doctor who lives on improbable scenarios. i find the alliance as improbable as the aliens themselves. there are logical reasons why this alliance formed, the main one being the one you actually stated..there desperate.

denali76c wrote:

Clavius wrote:

"I too find it VERY improbable that this disparate group of aliens would ALL work together like this, which makes me suspect that NONE of it is real."

there are logical reasons why this alliance formed, the main one being the one you actually stated..there desperate.

Disparate, not desperate, though desperate could apply too in this case.

But Disparate meaning totally different from one another, in this case, in ideology or motivations.

Even though they all hate The Doctor, most of them hate each other too, and I find it hard to fathom that they could ALL work together even in the interest of a common goal.

I would have loved to see the initial meetings leading up to this.

Sontaran General bangs fist on table:
"I would like to call to order the Coalition of Beings Dedicated to Destroying The Doctor. Cyber Leader, can you read the minutes from the last meeting?"

Cyber Leader: "I DELETED them."

Dalek: IT SHOULD NOT BE CALLED DEDICATED TO DESTROYING THE DOCTOR, IT SHOULD BE CALLED DEDICATED TO EXTERMINATING HIM!! BESIDES, WE HATED HIM LONG BEFORE ANY OF YOU!"

And on, and on it goes....

See, that's what I'm talking about! Bravo! LOL

I wish the whole season turns out to be a trap by the Rani
who wants to hijack the Doctors 11th regeneration for herself
and he reverts back to Tennant for a brief period before he dies
again and we get a new 11 Doc.

Someone get Morrisey on the phone,
Chop! Chop!

I still see this alliance as totally possible. Like I said before, Enemy of my Enemy is a very logical idea. Even the Doctor and the Master worked together. The Allies and the Soviets in WW2? But it isn't like this will lead to some great Galactic Federation with Daleks and Cybermen sitting in the Security Council using their veto to sanction the Sontarans for attacking the Rutons again!! I hope, the Big Bang has them turning on each other as soon as the Pandorica closes. They hate the Doctor more than each other. He has defeated them so many times. It is in their mutual interests to team up to destroy him. They would believe this would give them an advantage to then become the winner over their former allies. Betrayal will (should) come. If it doesn't, then I will complain.

ok, since everyone is talking about the alliance, i want to bring up one question that i really hope(pray) is answered in part 2. where do the flippin' cybermen come from??? they look like the one's from pete's world, but those came to our world, and got sucked into the void. then, in the next doctor, the doctor destroyed what was left of the ones who escaped from the void. so, where do the pete's world look-alikes come from? are they from that world? are they from an alternate universe, that they were created in just like in age of steel? was the bbc just re-using costumes not caring about continuity?

bret_owen99 wrote:

ok, since everyone is talking about the alliance, i want to bring up one question that i really hope(pray) is answered in part 2. where do the flippin' cybermen come from??? they look like the one's from pete's world, but those came to our world, and got sucked into the void. then, in the next doctor, the doctor destroyed what was left of the ones who escaped from the void. so, where do the pete's world look-alikes come from? are they from that world? are they from an alternate universe, that they were created in just like in age of steel? was the bbc just re-using costumes not caring about continuity?

I don't really understand where they come from. One of those ships did look like old Cyberships. That makes me wonder if they are meant to be Mondas/telos Cybies, but they just did not change the costume. And that really bugs me......I need a new Cyberman.

Its not a matter of "not caring", its a matter of the budget.

Moffat is a big fan of the old Cybermen, but new costumes for Mondasian Cybermen were not feasible in the current budget. As such, you use what you have. Plus, there's also several different explanations that one can use as well. Its just not that big a deal.

And besides, this is Doctor Who. When has continuity been priority number 1?

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...^o^CORVUS^o^
Doctor Who: The Winds of Time

it's a big deal for me. first off, this is doctor who, not red dwarf, so continuity should be a little better. B, or second, i wanted the cybermen to not be like the daleks. you know, ever since the first series started in 2005, it's like, you're the last dalek. then 2 episodes later, oh no, another one got away. then next season, what a whole platoon of daleks survived???? how many "final" dalek episodes have we had to sit through? that's one of the reasons i liked this years votd, because we knew it wouldn't be the last of them. i was just hoping the cybermen would get a better treatment then that.

I agree with Bret. I keep getting that from people, but you have to have some kind of continuity going, hence why the show's been going strong all these years!

bret_owen99 wrote:

it's a big deal for me. first off, this is doctor who, not red dwarf, so continuity should be a little better. B, or second, i wanted the cybermen to not be like the daleks. you know, ever since the first series started in 2005, it's like, you're the last dalek. then 2 episodes later, oh no, another one got away. then next season, what a whole platoon of daleks survived???? how many "final" dalek episodes have we had to sit through? that's one of the reasons i liked this years votd, because we knew it wouldn't be the last of them. i was just hoping the cybermen would get a better treatment then that.

The point you make here has bothered me about the modern series beyond just Daleks.

It seems like every other being is the last of something. We've got the Last of the Time Lords, the Last of the Jagrafess, the Last of the Racnoss, the Last of the Slitheen (family not species!), the Last of the Space Whales, the Last of the Carrionites, the Last of the Fish Vampires from Space, Last of the Gelth(?), and the Silurian they captured even tried to say she was the last of her race (a lie, but I threw it in anyway).

Did I miss any? this list was just off the top of my head.

Either way, the series goes to that well way too often.

The last of my money for toys?