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 S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)

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Brain of Davros
squishy
Just Scott
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SeaDevil
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PostSubject: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyMon Feb 24, 2020 5:18 pm



Discuss!
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Just Scott
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyThu Feb 27, 2020 4:09 pm

To quote Mr Solo......

"I got a bad feeling about this...."
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Just Scott
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptySun Mar 01, 2020 5:43 pm

Oh Dear.......
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squishy
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 12:21 am

Well, I really didn't like that very much.  While the idea of Doctors pre-dating Hartnell isn't terrible and we do have that glimpse from Brain of Morbius which was intended to introduce earlier Doctors, the execution left a lot to be desired.

All the talk of being a pacifist has been refuted on screen the past couple of episodes.  The Doctor has been throwing grenades, physically pushing the Master around, and the companions have been having shoot-outs with the worst bunch of Cyber-shots in the past 40 years.  The the writers have come out and said survival is more important that your values.  Everything I didn't like about Spyfall Part 2 came back to make this episode suck even more.  People said "just because the Spyfall aliens vanished in Part 2, there would be a resolution at the end of the series."  Well the aliens never showed up again so I still don't know what the heck was going on in Spyfall other than an awkward re-introduction of the Master.

Why did the new Cybermen want to kill all organic life rather than convert and conquer?  Someone has forgotten what the "Cyber-shtick" is supposed to be.  The Cybermen are not really evil, but they removed their emotions and by their new logic want to upgrade the rest of the universe.  The Lone Cyberman wanting to kill everyone rather than convert and to have a magic "death particle" doesn't jive with the past 50 years of Cybermen on screen.  He wanted to be scary and mean and kill everything.  Just as dumb as the Daleks being "robots" in Destiny of the Daleks or Daleks converting humans into pure Daleks.  Daleks are racists that want to kill everything not like themselves and Cybermen want to convert people because logic gone mad things that it is "good".  If you're going to use these monsters, then try to keep the motives consistent.

Why was the Master so mad?  The big lie that was going to change everything ended up being the small lie that really didn't matter.  Why spend a series hyping a mystery that once revealed you immediately admit "it doesn't mean anything" on screen?  And why did this hidden secret make the Master so mad?  He's mad because his childhood friend wasn't on his 1st body?  That seems like a terrible reason for genocide against your whole home planet.  And this Master was downright suicidal this whole episode hoping the death particle would kill him and trying to get the Doctor to kill him.  Why?  When did the Master become suicidal and why? There was no motivation provided on screen to explain what changed since Missy regenerated to cause this development.  And poor Sacha Dhawan was directed to ham it up so high I thought it was getting worse than John Simm and Eric Roberts combined.

Another really disappointing series ending.  At the last second some stranger runs up and says "I meant to mention this before, but I'm the one responsible for causing the Cybermen to win by screwing up the Cyber-puddle, and will happily blow myself up in your place".  No sign of the companions to stand by their Doctor at the crisis.  Why bother trying to make a series arc if it's just going to be terrible?  The standalone episodes that were not trying to make big reveals were all much more entertaining.  Once again the Time Lords were wiped out offscreen because writers think they're the biggest weenies ever and not really all-powerful.  Why run away from your people if you can just walk away from their incompetence?  And you can only be a hero if you're born special.  The Doctor agrees to being "better" than everyone else and therefore the hero.  I'm not really interested in a god-like being that can just blow-away all opposition.  The Doctor used to be a misfit who longed for adventure rather than playing by the rules and got by with wits and a bit of luck.  The New Series Doctor is god-like with power.

Oh, I finally found something that looks more stupid than flying Cyber-Heads.  Cyber-Time Lords with robes and crescent collars stuck to their heads are really stupid looking.
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Brain of Davros
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyMon Mar 02, 2020 2:22 am

Holy \"naughty word\" that was AWFUL!!! The poorest writing I have ever witnessed made possible by someone who has zero respect for a long running series and it’s fans.
Again the Doc did absolutely NOTHING of value! NOTHING! Like a wet noodle she just ate up time with her presence. The pathetic Master was more of a Tosser than anything else.A sad little worm whose hatred of life made him lash out against the Universe and his people.
We didn’t get anything of cool value,not even Dr Ruth(real one)to pop in and help save the day.
Yaz was more of a hero than the Doc. The companion scenes were the only glimmer of positivity for me in this train wreck. Also the new Cybermen looked cool but not the CyberLords.

So the Doctor has been alive for over 10 Billion years with what millions of lives? The 1,237,725th Doctor should be a doozy.

Jodie sucked as usual.I pray the Daleks KILL her for Christmas and Doctor Ruth pops in for a spin for a season minus Chitnall.

Very sad times.
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Ted47
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 10:06 am

I liked the look of the new Cybermen. My first thought was action figures.

But the one word that kept popping into my brain was "Absurd".
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 5:15 pm

Literally the best thing about the last two seasons of Doctor Who has been the 'CyberWarrior' design. The helmet is so great I don't even mind the silly spikes on the shoulders.

As for the retcon of pre-Hartnell Doctors, and making the Doctor the 'progenitor' of regenerating Time Lords... I mean, words cannot describe how annoyed I am at this. I mean, if you're going to discount 50+ years of established history of the show, you should have a great plan in place... Clearly there isn't one. There's just too many continuity errors and questions it raises.
1. Why would the pre-Hartnell Doctor's Tardis be a police box? That contradicts the very first Doctor Who story, where they established that it got stuck in that form.
2. Why didn't Clara meet any of the pre-Hartnell Doctors when she got splintered throughout his timeline?
3. What about "Time Of The Doctor", where he was dying because he was really old and could no longer regenerate?
It just goes on and on. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd rather see the series end than continue like this.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 6:08 pm

I'd say keep the Cybermen, but saw those spikes off the shoulders since they make no sense. Did the Cyber-War end in their defeat when they got too many hugs?
Then replace the head writer/script editor and get things back on track. We survived "I'm half human on my mothers side" and icky kissing so I don't see why this blunder should end it all. It could just be one of many, many things that is never mentioned again.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyTue Mar 03, 2020 7:09 pm

squishy wrote:
Did the Cyber-War end in their defeat when they got too many hugs?  
Ha! Wink Nice one!
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 12:18 am

Yes the series should end but be rebooted through movies and later a new series that starts again with young Hartnel Doc before he comes to Earth.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 1:52 pm

I'm not sure this is exactly the right thread to pose this question, but it's a bit spoiler-y and relates to events in "The Timeless Children", and some cast changes. It's also generally speculative BTS gossip... So if you're not into that, feel free to skip my post!





SPOILERS (ISH) AHEAD

It's been announced that both Tosin Cole and Bradley Walsh are leaving the show. By itself, this doesn't seem too remarkable.
Companions come and go, and I don't think the multi-companion thing works in the show's single-episode format. That said... I can't help but think of the, shall we say, "polarizing" effect the show has had on fandom these last two years, the steadily declining ratings, and some of the rumors we've heard over the last few months. I wonder how much turmoil and creative retooling might be going on behind the scenes?

There were rumors a few months ago that both Whitaker and Chibnall were departing (unclear if it was their decision or not)... But these rumors never gained much traction. Then about a month or two ago Jodie said in an interview (with seemingly little prompting) that she'd be staying on for a third year. Presumably this was said in response to the rumors of her departure. Given how 'gossipy' we fans can be, I didn't think much of any of this at the time.

Now I'm rethinking things! What if Chibnall and/or Whiter WERE going to leave... Until some plans changed? This wouldn't be the first time this happened. Jenna Coleman was supposed to leave after her first season with Capaldi (I think it had even been officially announced) but then stuck around for another season.

Two cases in point:

First, there's the fact that this whole season has been VERY eventful in terms of big story-arc twists. This is a huge acceleration of storytelling compared to last season, where the "Timeless Child" thing was barely even mentioned. It makes me think of the final seasons of "Babylon 5". B5's showrunner had planned a five-year story-arc, but halfway through season 4, he thought that he wouldn't be able to make the fifth season. His solution was to dramatically accelerate his story-arc, so much so that he got as far as filming the series finale... Before finding out that he'd get his fifth year after all! So he held the finale back from broadcast until the end of year five.
Did Chibnall accelerate his "Timeless Child" story arc, perhaps under the impression that he and/or Jodie would not be around for another season?

Now, after watching "The Timeless Children", I can't help but think it felt like a regeneration story... A finale for "The Doctor" , not just for the season. Indeed, there is a very logical place for the Doctor to have regenerated, with a minor rewrite. Likewise, it feels like the moment in question could have be a rewrite of a planned regeneration scene... Rewritten when Jodie decided to stay.
Again, I'm reminded of B5, and the way the showrunner put in 'trap-doors' for characters to be removed from the story if actors (who were only contracted one year at a time) decided to leave the show. Was such a trap-door written for Jodie's possible departure... Just in case this was her 'last' story?

What do you think?
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Brain of Davros
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 2:32 pm

It would explain Doctor Ruth much more if Jodie was to regenerate into her at the end of the finale. Maybe in the Christmas special.

As for Ryan and Graham leaving the show,it sucks cuz I really enjoyed the companion trio dynamic but if they aren’t being used productively then I don’t blame them wanting to leave.

Now all the weirdos can have what they really want on the show. The first “lesbian” kiss.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 6:41 pm

thebreen wrote:


SPOILERS (ISH) AHEAD

What if Chibnall and/or Whiter WERE going to leave... Until some plans changed?

What do you think?

I think there may have been some wavering as to who was going to stay for a third year.  I'd been wondering about the companion lineup all series.  Normally each Doctor has had at least two different "line-ups".  You get used to one pair and their dynamic until the companion leaves and someone new shows up.  All of a sudden the Doctor has a new relationship to react with.  Only the Ninth Doctor didn't stay long enough (and the 8th) although there were variations with Captain Jack & Adam coming and going to change things up with Rose.

Well, now I know who I won't see next year.  Or two years from now?  Golly, I hope it doesn't take this show-runner another 2 years to come up with another ill-considered plot twist.

And I can certainly see that this ending pretty much allows anyone who wants to leave a way out.  No matter what you thought of the current companion lineup, I'm of the mind that companions really shouldn't last more than two series.  Each Doctor needs some change, especially if they'll only do three series each.  Was "the twist" big enough to kill off a Doctor?  It certainly killed off fan enthusiasm in about 1/3 of the hardcore viewers.

I'd really like Pip Baker to come back to be show-runner for a season, although that's unlikely now that Jane Baker has passed on.  I've always liked the ending to Trial before I ever found out that Pip and Jane only had a week to write the thing and with only crazy vague indications of what the heck was going on.  One can only wonder what a healthy Robert Holmes would have been able to pull off, but I'm happy with what we got.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptyWed Mar 04, 2020 10:18 pm

Very disappointed.

I thought overall this year was pretty good and much improved overall from last year, and here in ONE episode, they both screwed the pooch AND jumped the shark.

What a waste.
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptySat Mar 14, 2020 7:11 am

And Chibnall stands gleefully over that coffin, hammering away...
Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers)   S12 E10: The Timeless Children (spoilers) EmptySat Mar 14, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm down with all the talk on Rebooting the series:)
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